6 ms·

nurtitionfacts.org is run by Michael Greger who is a vegan animal welfare crusader. Many of the articles have a factual basis but there is cherry picking to pro

by shirro 9y ago

nurtitionfacts.org is run by Michael Greger who is a vegan animal welfare crusader. Many of the articles have a factual basis but there is cherry picking to promote animal free diets so it is not an unbiased source.

KitDuncan 9y ago
Yeah this website is definitely to be taken with a grain of salt (even though Greger wouldn't be happy about the sodium intake), but at least he thoroughly cites his sources. Websites advocating for a Ketogenic diet feel just as biased and most of the time don't have half the research backing it.
cageface 9y ago
He backs up all his claims with extensive citations from recent, peer reviewed studies. The link between meat and heart disease, diabetes, and even cancer is very well established now. Anecdotally, keto diet did absolutely nothing for me except make me feel even worse, whereas I’ve noticed dramatic improvements in mood and health after three weeks of a purely plant based diet.
- scottLobster 9y ago
  Does your plant-based diet include bread/carbs, and did you stick with the keto diet for more than a few days? Usually when people feel like crap (initially) on keto it's their bodies switching over from primarily burning sugar to primarily burning fat, but it subsides after a few hours/days depending on the person/diet (look up "keto flu"). Note that keto does not necessarily include meat. You'd get the same effect eating nothing but raw vegetables for a week.
  - cageface 9y ago
    I eat complex carbs like brown rice. I avoid refined carbs. I did keto for two weeks and finally had to stop because I felt worse and hated what I was eating. To be clear I was eating the kind of keto diet I usually see people endorse which is very heavy in animal fat and protein. In contrast I’ve been purely plant based for three weeks now and I’ve noticed dramatic improvements in my mood and energy levels. I’ve lost a bit of weight and I really enjoy what I’m eating. The numbness and swelling I’ve struggled with for over a year as a result of surgery for a broken leg has also massively improved, which I didn’t expect.
    - invisible 9y ago
      I've switched to a diet that is mostly plant based with small portions of meat occasionally and low carb intake. I don't agree that "plant based" is the reason you feel better but I do think not eating huge quantities of meat and carbohydrates/sugar causes your body to be a little more accommodating.
      - cageface 9y ago
        The link between consumption of saturated fat and cholesterol with cardiovascular disease is extremely well established so I don't think it's a coincidence that I feel this much better after cutting them out of my diet.
        DiThi 9y ago
        The link is not well established at all, esp. considering the studies of the last decade or two. https://lifeforbusypeople.com/2016/08/24/why-anti-fat-is-completely-misguided/ https://lifeforbusypeople.com/2016/08/24/why-anti-fat-is-com... Industrial meat is not exactly good, though, it has all kinds of issues but the fat and cholesterol aren't a problem.
        cageface 9y ago
        Fat and cholesterol are very much a problem, despite what a lot of vested interests would like you to believe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmKv1m2SVio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmKv1m2SVio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBtfzd43t8o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBtfzd43t8o
        DiThi 9y ago
        The vast majority of the studies mentioned in those videos are old, where most researchers could get away with hacking the P values [0]. A lot of studies done in the last decade contradict the older ones (the article I linked earlier is full of sources). Also correlation is not causation. In how many of those studies controlled the amount of carbs? Because the combination is very important [1] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14831224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14831224 Edit: Looking at the last link of your first video, it acknowledges low carb diets are beneficial short and medium term, but there's very little literature for long term. It concludes low carbs are bad long term... but you must see the table on page 13 to see how they reached that conclusion. The "low carb score" group still had a crazily high 37-42% of carbs (compared to LCHF diets which are usually 5% carbs), it had more smokers and all of them had trans fats (very dangerous but can be easily avoided altogether).
- shirro 9y ago
  The site is very good at sourcing articles and it is an excellent resource as long as you realise he is probably ethically inclined not to promote any study which might increase the suffering of animals. I don't think that makes him a bad person or the website valueless but it is hard to argue it does not have a strong ethical vegan bias. At the moment I would claim that overconsumption of highly processed, mostly plant based foods is the real nutritional disaster. Meat consumption is falling in many places but obesity and related diseases are still getting worse. If you don't have ethical concerns I think low to moderate consumption of animal protein as part of a balance diet is still probably sensible. You probably want to avoid processed meats and charring. But we are all going to die from something and statistically it probably isn't going to be from eating an occasional steak.
  - shlant 9y ago
    > Meat consumption is falling in many places but obesity and related diseases are still getting worse. I can use that same logic to say that sugar and carbohydrate consumption has gone down while obesity has continued rising: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0OuoFyJtZuI/VkofY-qgeOI/AAAAAAAAbbM/656z94MUnQg/s1600/Carbs%2Bvs.%2Bobesity.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0OuoFyJtZuI/VkofY-qgeOI/AAAAAAAAbb... http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fUv755XU-3g/Vkof8Eln2WI/AAAAAAAAbbU/gIqDZs4l708/s1600/Carbs%2Bvs.%2Bobesity%2B%2528sugar%2529.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fUv755XU-3g/Vkof8Eln2WI/AAAAAAAAbb... The main problem is still OVERCONSUMPTION of highly processed and hormone filled foods
  - cageface 9y ago
    I always thought that heart disease was something I might one day have to worry about but could ignore in the meantime while I enjoy eating what I want. But I'm only 46 now and over the last year I've been experiencing increasing tightness and discomfort in my chest and strong heart arrhythmia. That's what motivated me to take a closer look at my diet. After only three weeks of eliminating animal products from my diet those symptoms have disappeared. As for growing obesity, there is a lot of evidence that points to toxins in our food as an important factor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieQBdS9cN0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieQBdS9cN0I Most of these toxins are concentrated in animal products. People are also eating a lot more cheese which contributes to obesity: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/09/now-is-the-time-of-cheese/279933/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/09/now-is-th... Of course refined carbohydrates and sugars are also a big problem and they should be scrupulously avoided.
- iamt2 9y ago
  > The link between meat and...diabetes...is very well established now. There is a group of Type 2 diabetics in remission who are doing just fine on meat-based and keto-based diets, with no medication. If meat was a causal contributing factor to diabetes, I wouldn't expect to see that. We do eat a lot of leafy greens, it isn't like all-meat-all-the-time. But fresh meat, simply prepared, eaten to the protein macros appropriate for your body, does nothing to exacerbate these already-diagnosed Type 2 patients from going back into Type 2. A contributing factor to diabetes is surplus calories creating excess body fat. You can do that with meat, vegetables, fruit, and breads. Harder to do with vegetables if you eat the veggies raw; if you eat only leafy greens for vegetables, I'd say it is nearly impossible. There are vegan/vegetarian Type 2 patients, but I have yet to run across one in remission on no medication, for two years or longer, so they might be rare. It is much harder to get your proteins while carb restricted to manage blood sugar levels, eating only vegetables; I'm sure there are vegetarian Type 2's in remission out there, likely using soy-based products and protein powder to get their protein, it's just not as popular a method of going into remission. Personally, I switched to preparing meals using as unprocessed as possible foods. If I could eat raw beef (like a tartare), I would; I don't because it is too time-consuming to prepare. This rules out tofu and other soy-based products, and protein powders as well, for me personally. I can manage to build muscle and keep my blood sugar markers in a normal non-diabetic range as long as I keep my daily net carbohydrate intake to 20g or less. If you are familiar with vegetarian diets and can suggest a way for me to switch to a vegetarian approach that observes that, supports about 2500 calories per day, and is made from unprocessed ingredients, then please let me know, thanks.
  - cageface 9y ago
    Avoiding processed foods, both animal and plant, is a good idea. But the links between diabetes and animal products are pretty well established: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/why-is-meat-a-risk-factor-for-diabetes/ https://nutritionfacts.org/video/why-is-meat-a-risk-factor-f... https://nutritionfacts.org/video/diabetes-as-a-disease-of-fat-toxicity/ https://nutritionfacts.org/video/diabetes-as-a-disease-of-fa... You might want to have a look at this book too: https://www.amazon.com/Neal-Barnards-Program-Reversing-Diabetes/dp/1594868107/ https://www.amazon.com/Neal-Barnards-Program-Reversing-Diabe...
zz00vv 9y ago
This is an ad hominem and quite unfair. Michael Greger states himself that he does not like the term veganism, and he also writes that it was the health benefits of a plant based diet that led him to promote that diet. To call him a "vegan animal welfare crusader" is a bit hyperbolic to say the least. From Greger's book How Not to Die he writes in the Introduction to Part 2: > From a nutrition standpoint, the reason I don’t like the terms vegetarian and vegan is that they are only defined by what you don’t eat. When I used to speak on college campuses, I would meet vegans who appeared to be living off french fries and beer. Vegan, technically, but not exactly health promoting. That’s why I prefer the term whole-food, plant-based nutrition. As far as I can discern, the best available balance of evidence suggests that the healthiest diet is one centered on unprocessed plant foods. On a day-today basis, the more whole plant foods and the fewer processed and animal products, the better. And from the Preface of How Not to Die he writes: > True, I have biases of my own to rein in. Although my original motivation was health, over the years, I’ve grown into quite the animal lover. Three cats and a dog run our household, and I’ve spent much of my professional life proudly serving the Humane Society of the United States as the charity’s public health director. So, like many people, I care about the welfare of the animals we eat, but first and foremost, I am a physician. My primary duty has always been to care for my patients, to accurately provide the best available balance of evidence.

by shirro 9y ago

KitDuncan 9y ago

Yeah this website is definitely to be taken with a grain of salt (even though Greger wouldn't be happy about the sodium intake), but at least he thoroughly cites his sources. Websites advocating for a Ketogenic diet feel just as biased and most of the time don't have half the research backing it.

cageface 9y ago

He backs up all his claims with extensive citations from recent, peer reviewed studies. The link between meat and heart disease, diabetes, and even cancer is very well established now. Anecdotally, keto diet did absolutely nothing for me except make me feel even worse, whereas I’ve noticed dramatic improvements in mood and health after three weeks of a purely plant based diet.

scottLobster 9y ago
Does your plant-based diet include bread/carbs, and did you stick with the keto diet for more than a few days? Usually when people feel like crap (initially) on keto it's their bodies switching over from primarily burning sugar to primarily burning fat, but it subsides after a few hours/days depending on the person/diet (look up "keto flu"). Note that keto does not necessarily include meat. You'd get the same effect eating nothing but raw vegetables for a week.
- cageface 9y ago
  I eat complex carbs like brown rice. I avoid refined carbs. I did keto for two weeks and finally had to stop because I felt worse and hated what I was eating. To be clear I was eating the kind of keto diet I usually see people endorse which is very heavy in animal fat and protein. In contrast I’ve been purely plant based for three weeks now and I’ve noticed dramatic improvements in my mood and energy levels. I’ve lost a bit of weight and I really enjoy what I’m eating. The numbness and swelling I’ve struggled with for over a year as a result of surgery for a broken leg has also massively improved, which I didn’t expect.
  - invisible 9y ago
    I've switched to a diet that is mostly plant based with small portions of meat occasionally and low carb intake. I don't agree that "plant based" is the reason you feel better but I do think not eating huge quantities of meat and carbohydrates/sugar causes your body to be a little more accommodating.
    - cageface 9y ago
      The link between consumption of saturated fat and cholesterol with cardiovascular disease is extremely well established so I don't think it's a coincidence that I feel this much better after cutting them out of my diet.
      - DiThi 9y ago
        The link is not well established at all, esp. considering the studies of the last decade or two. https://lifeforbusypeople.com/2016/08/24/why-anti-fat-is-completely-misguided/ https://lifeforbusypeople.com/2016/08/24/why-anti-fat-is-com... Industrial meat is not exactly good, though, it has all kinds of issues but the fat and cholesterol aren't a problem.
        cageface 9y ago
        Fat and cholesterol are very much a problem, despite what a lot of vested interests would like you to believe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmKv1m2SVio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmKv1m2SVio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBtfzd43t8o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBtfzd43t8o
        DiThi 9y ago
        The vast majority of the studies mentioned in those videos are old, where most researchers could get away with hacking the P values [0]. A lot of studies done in the last decade contradict the older ones (the article I linked earlier is full of sources). Also correlation is not causation. In how many of those studies controlled the amount of carbs? Because the combination is very important [1] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14831224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14831224 Edit: Looking at the last link of your first video, it acknowledges low carb diets are beneficial short and medium term, but there's very little literature for long term. It concludes low carbs are bad long term... but you must see the table on page 13 to see how they reached that conclusion. The "low carb score" group still had a crazily high 37-42% of carbs (compared to LCHF diets which are usually 5% carbs), it had more smokers and all of them had trans fats (very dangerous but can be easily avoided altogether).
shirro 9y ago
The site is very good at sourcing articles and it is an excellent resource as long as you realise he is probably ethically inclined not to promote any study which might increase the suffering of animals. I don't think that makes him a bad person or the website valueless but it is hard to argue it does not have a strong ethical vegan bias. At the moment I would claim that overconsumption of highly processed, mostly plant based foods is the real nutritional disaster. Meat consumption is falling in many places but obesity and related diseases are still getting worse. If you don't have ethical concerns I think low to moderate consumption of animal protein as part of a balance diet is still probably sensible. You probably want to avoid processed meats and charring. But we are all going to die from something and statistically it probably isn't going to be from eating an occasional steak.
- shlant 9y ago
  > Meat consumption is falling in many places but obesity and related diseases are still getting worse. I can use that same logic to say that sugar and carbohydrate consumption has gone down while obesity has continued rising: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0OuoFyJtZuI/VkofY-qgeOI/AAAAAAAAbbM/656z94MUnQg/s1600/Carbs%2Bvs.%2Bobesity.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0OuoFyJtZuI/VkofY-qgeOI/AAAAAAAAbb... http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fUv755XU-3g/Vkof8Eln2WI/AAAAAAAAbbU/gIqDZs4l708/s1600/Carbs%2Bvs.%2Bobesity%2B%2528sugar%2529.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fUv755XU-3g/Vkof8Eln2WI/AAAAAAAAbb... The main problem is still OVERCONSUMPTION of highly processed and hormone filled foods
- cageface 9y ago
  I always thought that heart disease was something I might one day have to worry about but could ignore in the meantime while I enjoy eating what I want. But I'm only 46 now and over the last year I've been experiencing increasing tightness and discomfort in my chest and strong heart arrhythmia. That's what motivated me to take a closer look at my diet. After only three weeks of eliminating animal products from my diet those symptoms have disappeared. As for growing obesity, there is a lot of evidence that points to toxins in our food as an important factor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieQBdS9cN0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieQBdS9cN0I Most of these toxins are concentrated in animal products. People are also eating a lot more cheese which contributes to obesity: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/09/now-is-the-time-of-cheese/279933/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/09/now-is-th... Of course refined carbohydrates and sugars are also a big problem and they should be scrupulously avoided.
iamt2 9y ago
> The link between meat and...diabetes...is very well established now. There is a group of Type 2 diabetics in remission who are doing just fine on meat-based and keto-based diets, with no medication. If meat was a causal contributing factor to diabetes, I wouldn't expect to see that. We do eat a lot of leafy greens, it isn't like all-meat-all-the-time. But fresh meat, simply prepared, eaten to the protein macros appropriate for your body, does nothing to exacerbate these already-diagnosed Type 2 patients from going back into Type 2. A contributing factor to diabetes is surplus calories creating excess body fat. You can do that with meat, vegetables, fruit, and breads. Harder to do with vegetables if you eat the veggies raw; if you eat only leafy greens for vegetables, I'd say it is nearly impossible. There are vegan/vegetarian Type 2 patients, but I have yet to run across one in remission on no medication, for two years or longer, so they might be rare. It is much harder to get your proteins while carb restricted to manage blood sugar levels, eating only vegetables; I'm sure there are vegetarian Type 2's in remission out there, likely using soy-based products and protein powder to get their protein, it's just not as popular a method of going into remission. Personally, I switched to preparing meals using as unprocessed as possible foods. If I could eat raw beef (like a tartare), I would; I don't because it is too time-consuming to prepare. This rules out tofu and other soy-based products, and protein powders as well, for me personally. I can manage to build muscle and keep my blood sugar markers in a normal non-diabetic range as long as I keep my daily net carbohydrate intake to 20g or less. If you are familiar with vegetarian diets and can suggest a way for me to switch to a vegetarian approach that observes that, supports about 2500 calories per day, and is made from unprocessed ingredients, then please let me know, thanks.
- cageface 9y ago
  Avoiding processed foods, both animal and plant, is a good idea. But the links between diabetes and animal products are pretty well established: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/why-is-meat-a-risk-factor-for-diabetes/ https://nutritionfacts.org/video/why-is-meat-a-risk-factor-f... https://nutritionfacts.org/video/diabetes-as-a-disease-of-fat-toxicity/ https://nutritionfacts.org/video/diabetes-as-a-disease-of-fa... You might want to have a look at this book too: https://www.amazon.com/Neal-Barnards-Program-Reversing-Diabetes/dp/1594868107/ https://www.amazon.com/Neal-Barnards-Program-Reversing-Diabe...

zz00vv 9y ago

This is an ad hominem and quite unfair. Michael Greger states himself that he does not like the term veganism, and he also writes that it was the health benefits of a plant based diet that led him to promote that diet. To call him a "vegan animal welfare crusader" is a bit hyperbolic to say the least. From Greger's book How Not to Die he writes in the Introduction to Part 2: > From a nutrition standpoint, the reason I don’t like the terms vegetarian and vegan is that they are only defined by what you don’t eat. When I used to speak on college campuses, I would meet vegans who appeared to be living off french fries and beer. Vegan, technically, but not exactly health promoting. That’s why I prefer the term whole-food, plant-based nutrition. As far as I can discern, the best available balance of evidence suggests that the healthiest diet is one centered on unprocessed plant foods. On a day-today basis, the more whole plant foods and the fewer processed and animal products, the better. And from the Preface of How Not to Die he writes: > True, I have biases of my own to rein in. Although my original motivation was health, over the years, I’ve grown into quite the animal lover. Three cats and a dog run our household, and I’ve spent much of my professional life proudly serving the Humane Society of the United States as the charity’s public health director. So, like many people, I care about the welfare of the animals we eat, but first and foremost, I am a physician. My primary duty has always been to care for my patients, to accurately provide the best available balance of evidence.