4 ms·

Do you have an example app in production that cross compiles to all platforms? Also, what constitutes a real programmer?

tomc1985 9y ago
> Also, what constitutes a real programmer? People that aren't afraid of the hard stuff, and don't need software to wipe their ass? As for software... IntelliJ IDEA (Swing), we use internal pyGTK stuff that runs on Win/Mac/Lin, Wireshark (QT), Mozilla Firefox (XUL ... another brilliant UI markup language which died for no good reason), pgAdmin III (wxWidgets) On the music plugin side of things there is a lot of VSTs written in JUCE framework, another good cross-platform UI kit which focused on audio software.
- jamescostian 9y ago
  What if someone told you that using Swing, QT, and GTK were all bad, rsource-wasting things made for people that "need software to wipe their ass", and that "real programmers" use butterflies? Check this out to better understand the "no true scottsman" fallacy: https://www.xkcd.com/378/ https://www.xkcd.com/378/ You're just hating on something new and praising some old things, but in the past, those same things were also hated on for the same reasons (e.g. so many people hated on swing and java in general early on for wasting memory; "real programmers don't use Java") Each electron app spawning up separate instances of chrome is totally wasting memory. Argue about that, instead of "real programmer" bs
  - tomc1985 9y ago
    What a novel concept! I feel so edumacated now. Surely my IQ rose by a few points. And to follow-up edit, of course theres no one true scotsman. The assembly-reciting graybeards look down at GUI programmers, who look down on the webdevs, who really don't have anyone to look down upon because they still have so much to learn. And why does the argument always have to be about resource consumption? Does anybody actually even truly care? I hate Electron because it is an incredibly poor use of existing resources and that it leverages tools very inappropriate for the task of creating cross-platform GUI applications. Entire industries are built out of this unholy Frankenstein of duct tape and chicken wire. Now, for the job of quickly banging out an app so the business fucks can make their $$$$$.... now that's different
    - jamescostian 9y ago
      Ok great! Expand on what spedifically makes it less appropriate and what makes alternatives more appropriate.
    - matthewmacleod 9y ago
      it is an incredibly poor use of existing resources and that it leverages tools very inappropriate for the task of creating cross-platform GUI applications … because there aren't better tools.
      - tomc1985 9y ago
        There are, people just have to step outside their comfort zone to use them.
        matthewmacleod 9y ago
        No. There aren't. There are no good cross-platform development environments. There are a handful which might be acceptable for some user-cases; Electron is unfortunately one of them. If you think there are a plethora of amazing tools out there that people are using to build cross-platform apps, then you're wrong.
- skinnymuch 9y ago
  Damn. I better change my info online and stop people I'm a programmer. Better notify all sorts of census and demographic departments. We have been over accounting programmers in the tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions!
- jancsika 9y ago
  > On the music plugin side of things there is a lot of VSTs written in JUCE framework, another good cross-platform UI kit which focused on audio software. Real audio programmer here. I used nw.js (essentially like Electron without the necessity to do IPC for intra-window communication) to port the frontend for a realtime audio engine written in C. Frontend and business logic speak over a socket. No need for JUCE because the UI has no need for JUCE's audio tools. Port could happen extremely fast because of the brilliance of Chromium devtools-- introspection and real time updating of styles/DOM state was a life saver. This was a port from tcl/tk which had (has?) a half-baked theme-ing engine and no easy way to introspect the contents of a Tk Canvas. Qt would have been nice but the frontend is a visual diagram with boxes connected by Bezier curves. QML doesn't have an easy way to do that without the performance scaling with the size of the logical canvas (which is unacceptable because users sometimes want enormous logical canvas sizes).
- matthewmacleod 9y ago
  People that aren't afraid of the hard stuff, and don't need software to wipe their ass? Exactly the sort of shitty attitude that will get us nowhere. I have seen a plethora of QT, GTK and other cross-platform applications that weren't only laggy as shit, but riddled with UI bugs. I fucking hate that Electron is now an accepted way to build applications, believe me – but the reason we ended up in this situation is because "real programmers" failed to develop a framework that effectively dealt with developer and user needs.
  - tomc1985 9y ago
    Well its the only attitude that is left after one's opinions and practices are continuously railroaded by excess industry profiteering and need for "change". Sure, nobody stands up to defend the bad attitude but how can one have anything else when all you see are perfectly good things thrown away because they're not shiny enough? I'm sick of watching this field serve shit for dinner and I have no problem with making people feel bad for their bad decisions. Don't want to get made fun of? Don't do things worthy of being made fun of. (The peanut gallery is always watching.) Anyways, it shouldn't be the job of the toolset to prevent bad users from shooting themselves, therefore you are always going to have bad, laggy programs in any UI paradigm. It is the job of the toolset, and those that built it, to not take any one piece of tech too far (in this case, HTML rendering engines) when there are so many acceptable and superior substitutes.

tomc1985 9y ago

> Also, what constitutes a real programmer? People that aren't afraid of the hard stuff, and don't need software to wipe their ass? As for software... IntelliJ IDEA (Swing), we use internal pyGTK stuff that runs on Win/Mac/Lin, Wireshark (QT), Mozilla Firefox (XUL ... another brilliant UI markup language which died for no good reason), pgAdmin III (wxWidgets) On the music plugin side of things there is a lot of VSTs written in JUCE framework, another good cross-platform UI kit which focused on audio software.

jamescostian 9y ago
What if someone told you that using Swing, QT, and GTK were all bad, rsource-wasting things made for people that "need software to wipe their ass", and that "real programmers" use butterflies? Check this out to better understand the "no true scottsman" fallacy: https://www.xkcd.com/378/ https://www.xkcd.com/378/ You're just hating on something new and praising some old things, but in the past, those same things were also hated on for the same reasons (e.g. so many people hated on swing and java in general early on for wasting memory; "real programmers don't use Java") Each electron app spawning up separate instances of chrome is totally wasting memory. Argue about that, instead of "real programmer" bs
- tomc1985 9y ago
  What a novel concept! I feel so edumacated now. Surely my IQ rose by a few points. And to follow-up edit, of course theres no one true scotsman. The assembly-reciting graybeards look down at GUI programmers, who look down on the webdevs, who really don't have anyone to look down upon because they still have so much to learn. And why does the argument always have to be about resource consumption? Does anybody actually even truly care? I hate Electron because it is an incredibly poor use of existing resources and that it leverages tools very inappropriate for the task of creating cross-platform GUI applications. Entire industries are built out of this unholy Frankenstein of duct tape and chicken wire. Now, for the job of quickly banging out an app so the business fucks can make their $$$$$.... now that's different
  - jamescostian 9y ago
    Ok great! Expand on what spedifically makes it less appropriate and what makes alternatives more appropriate.
  - matthewmacleod 9y ago
    it is an incredibly poor use of existing resources and that it leverages tools very inappropriate for the task of creating cross-platform GUI applications … because there aren't better tools.
    - tomc1985 9y ago
      There are, people just have to step outside their comfort zone to use them.
      - matthewmacleod 9y ago
        No. There aren't. There are no good cross-platform development environments. There are a handful which might be acceptable for some user-cases; Electron is unfortunately one of them. If you think there are a plethora of amazing tools out there that people are using to build cross-platform apps, then you're wrong.
skinnymuch 9y ago
Damn. I better change my info online and stop people I'm a programmer. Better notify all sorts of census and demographic departments. We have been over accounting programmers in the tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions!
jancsika 9y ago
> On the music plugin side of things there is a lot of VSTs written in JUCE framework, another good cross-platform UI kit which focused on audio software. Real audio programmer here. I used nw.js (essentially like Electron without the necessity to do IPC for intra-window communication) to port the frontend for a realtime audio engine written in C. Frontend and business logic speak over a socket. No need for JUCE because the UI has no need for JUCE's audio tools. Port could happen extremely fast because of the brilliance of Chromium devtools-- introspection and real time updating of styles/DOM state was a life saver. This was a port from tcl/tk which had (has?) a half-baked theme-ing engine and no easy way to introspect the contents of a Tk Canvas. Qt would have been nice but the frontend is a visual diagram with boxes connected by Bezier curves. QML doesn't have an easy way to do that without the performance scaling with the size of the logical canvas (which is unacceptable because users sometimes want enormous logical canvas sizes).
matthewmacleod 9y ago
People that aren't afraid of the hard stuff, and don't need software to wipe their ass? Exactly the sort of shitty attitude that will get us nowhere. I have seen a plethora of QT, GTK and other cross-platform applications that weren't only laggy as shit, but riddled with UI bugs. I fucking hate that Electron is now an accepted way to build applications, believe me – but the reason we ended up in this situation is because "real programmers" failed to develop a framework that effectively dealt with developer and user needs.
- tomc1985 9y ago
  Well its the only attitude that is left after one's opinions and practices are continuously railroaded by excess industry profiteering and need for "change". Sure, nobody stands up to defend the bad attitude but how can one have anything else when all you see are perfectly good things thrown away because they're not shiny enough? I'm sick of watching this field serve shit for dinner and I have no problem with making people feel bad for their bad decisions. Don't want to get made fun of? Don't do things worthy of being made fun of. (The peanut gallery is always watching.) Anyways, it shouldn't be the job of the toolset to prevent bad users from shooting themselves, therefore you are always going to have bad, laggy programs in any UI paradigm. It is the job of the toolset, and those that built it, to not take any one piece of tech too far (in this case, HTML rendering engines) when there are so many acceptable and superior substitutes.