9 ms·

I think tech represents a good implementation of a meritocracy. You are welcomed to be weird and yourself, as long as you get your work done. Think about your

I think tech represents a good implementation of a meritocracy. You are welcomed to be weird and yourself, as long as you get your work done. Think about your coworkers-- you've got some weird ones. Dyed hair? Check. Burlesque dancing? Check. Gender non-conforming? Check. Goes to Burning Man? Check, check, self-check. Any of these things could get you fired from teaching kindergarten. Let's keep tech inclusive and accepting and weird. --- Before switching to software, I was a Research Associate at the Fred Hutch. At one point my Principal Investigator told me point-blank: "I don't expect to help you or motivate you, the other Research Associate, or the PostDocs much, because you all get paid far more than the Grad Students." Being a manager and giving a bit of excitement and motivation is so easy. It's free! It's free to have a positive attitude and be excited for your work and let that be infectious. Yet my boss just decided not to do it. Academia biology research is so fucked.

balls187 9y ago
It is a good implementation. I think the crux is that it could be better, and for some (many?) it's not good enough.
humanrebar 9y ago
I mostly agree but the Brendan Eich firing and the dongle joke kerfuffle are counterfactuals. Or, taking a group example instead of individuals, "brogrammers". I think you can be unpopular or stick out in a lot of ways and still be successful, but I don't think it's as simple as come-as-you-are. You'll do fine (I'm sure Eich is personally fine) but you can easily hit some challenges along the way.
pyroinferno 9y ago
None of my coworkers are like. Also, if you want to keep tech weird doesn't that mean you need to reject the non-weird, the "conformists". How is that accepting at all?
tryitnow 9y ago
Lol, really? Tell that to software engineers past the age of 50. Look, every industry has its pros and cons. Sure tech is good for the Burning Man crowd (if you live in the Bay Area or other major American liberal city), but it certainly suffers from a ton of ageism, among other maladies. I think it all comes down to what sort of industry you personally feel more comfortable in. For me, that's tech, but if my conservative Christian grandmother were alive today she sure as heck wouldn't be comfortable in the Bay Area tech scene. Whenever you find yourself patting yourself on your back for being inclusive, just do the math - is your group really inclusive or is it just symbolically signifying inclusiveness?
- com2kid 9y ago
  > Tell that to software engineers past the age of 50. Come work at a BigCorp. Here at Microsoft, every age range is represented, W/L balance is great (people supporting online services who are responsible for The Phone that week aside), and every team I have been on strives for diversity and inclusion. That said, is it a pure meritocracy? Of course not, people who play politics and are good at getting assigned to high visibility projects get promoted faster. But good work is rewarded, and people are generally quite happy. Edit: The food isn't free, but the on campus medical clinic, summer farmers market, and other tiny perks that come from having a huge and expansive campus set amongst what looks like woodlands, more than balances it out. And, regardless of gender, no one will bat an eye if you go at 4:00pm to pick up your kids.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    x2 BigCorps also have stability which "old" people need to support their families, especially when the kids are going to college.
    - sqeaky 9y ago
      x3+ I have contracted with numerous companies with old engineers. Insurance, Embedded Appliances and Defense had a reasonable distribution ages.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- civilian 9y ago
  You're right, politics & age are major caveats. As someone who voted for Gary Johnson and laughed when Clinton lost, I definitely feel the lack of inclusion at times.
amackera 9y ago
It's a nice sentiment, but tech is very far from any sort of meritocracy. Falsely believing that it is a meritocracy can do more harm than good. I'm not trying to be negative towards your experience --- I'm glad you have a happy perception of the industry --- I just want to reinforce how important it is for us to improve diversity in all its forms before we start congratulating ourselves.
- xxSparkleSxx 9y ago
  Which industries do you think are MORE meritocratic than tech? Tech's not perfect, but I think they do it better than most (all?).
  - owebmaster 9y ago
    Sports? Music?
    - yellowapple 9y ago
      I'm not really sure if music is all that meritocratic. In some circles, sure, but the mainstream seems to be dominated by pretty faces propped up by major labels. This does seem to be changing for the better thanks to the Internet, but there's still a very long way to go.
      - owebmaster 9y ago
        > I'm not really sure if music is all that meritocratic. One thing for sure is that no industry in the world is all that meritocratic. But Music and Sports (even with the mainstream whitewash) for sure has a better social and racial distribution than any other industry I can think of.
  - seppin 9y ago
    > Which industries do you think are MORE meritocratic than tech? None of them are, but tech isn't any better.
bhnmmhmd 9y ago
I agree with what you said about meritocracy, mostly. A few months ago, I made a sexist statement here on HN about women and that they don't think logically [0]. Well, I couldn't be more ashamed and sorry for that. I've known some incredible women in tech ever since, and came to realize that I was wrong. Tech is actually a place where women can shine. [0] That statement got my account banned and I couldn't get it back. Edit: corrected my sentences to better convey my meaning.
- krapp 9y ago
  >A few months ago, I made a sexist statement here on HN about women and the fact that they don't think logically. For the future, if you're actually contrite, you should probably stop referring to that belief as a "fact".
  - bhnmmhmd 9y ago
    Yeah, actually I didn't know how to say that in English. I'll edit it.
whatsmypwagain 9y ago
Tech is inclusive, accepting and weird as long as you're a liberal aged 40 and under.
- gitlabuser 9y ago
  Exactly. I'm liberal but I'm still astounded by the vitrol, hate, and language my colleagues use to describe conservatives and Republicans. Inclusion means accepting people as people, not accepting just the people who look, talk, and share the same beliefs as you.
  - krapp 9y ago
    And meritocracy should mean none of that matters. Tech has a long traditional preference for leftist, anarchist and liberal politics and "non-conformist" behavior, but those are more about tribalism and value signaling and, ironically, conformity than merit. You can be a hoodie wearing, blue-haired transgendered commie and still write terrible code.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - balls187 9y ago
    > Inclusion means accepting people as people, not accepting just the people who look, talk, and share the same beliefs as you. No. There are some beliefs that run counter to our societies ideals. Those beliefs and the people who espouse them should be shunned. Harshly. Sorry you (theoretical Republican) don't think Gay people should be allowed to get married. Keep your backward ass beliefs to yourself.
    - Sk1pp 9y ago
      I think you just helped further the posters first statement.
      - 9y ago
ue_ 9y ago
A question is if we want a meritocracy at all, and whether such a model would be suitable for everyone, and further how merit is even judged; the problem isn't as you've mentioned "weirdness", it's that people can be treated worse for not even being "weird" at all. There have been various criticisms levelled at the idea of "colur blindness", and I think that when people say they are in favour of a meritocracy, they are in favour of continuing this idea that people start on a level field in which everyone's merit can be fairly assessed. Merit is assessed by each member of the team, and thus personal bias comes into play. The mere operation on the assesment of merit is insufficient to remove these biases, if they do exist. I don't like the idea of "sit down and do your work", beacuse to me it feels dehumanising. Yes, I know this is how "the system" works in the "real world" but I think this attitude is stopping us from realising that when working in a team we are all human and human issues need to be addressed. So in this sense I can appeal to you too in saying that efficiency may indeed be compromised with the "sit down and work" attitude when some people are clearly facing problems. Our mode of production does not optimise for the human side of interaction, nor the psychological aspect of the effects of production (joint or not) (i.e alienation) and for this reason I would say that we're already too meritocratic. People turn out to be pretty poor judges of merit, at least from the arguments I have seen. Meritocracy can lead to someone regarded as more experienced or doing more "important" work shutting down someone else who has legitimate criticisms.
gitlabuser 9y ago
I don't think that any of these examples show that Bay Area tech is a meritocracy or inclusive. The truth is the tech community has a culture and almost all the things you mentioned are almost stereotypical parts of it. These all fit within the tech culture: * Going to burning man * Going to SXSW * Working with the LGBT community * Tattoos / Dyed hair * Pole dancing * Wearing Stan Smiths * Being obsessed with high end coffee You shouldn't be patting yourself on the back that tech accepts these things. I've seen terrible examples of the community not accepting: * Those who believe in gun rights * Those who are strongly religious * Those who are homeless * Those who are lower class * Those who are H-1Bs (Indian outsourcing bias) * Those who are Republican * Those who are black * Those who are old / have grey hair Being inclusive and meritocratic doesn't mean accepting things that are within your culture. It means accepting those that are outside. I remember a colleague talking about a Dropbox all hands meeting where every one was patting themselves on the backs because the recruiting team had hired many from the LGBT community. He looked at me and said "Why the f* is everyone so happy? We literally have 1 black person in a company of almost 1,000" Seriously, if you think that having colleagues having dyed hair or going to Burning man is proof that you are meritocratic or inclusive you are in a huge bubble.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > Being inclusive and meritocratic doesn't mean accepting things that are within your culture. I think there's some subtle definition creep in the word "inclusive" these days. It's starting to mean "cosmopolitan". I recall the recent STEM girl scouts story. One of the commenters called the initiative "inclusive", which isn't quite the right. It's the same girls scouts doing something different, so it's not more inclusive, really. Beneficial? Sure. Eclectic? Yeah. Progressive? OK. Inclusive? I'm not following.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > It's the same girls scouts doing something different Alternatively, it's a change by scout leadership which broadens the set of interests to which the Girl Scouts appeal, increasing the diversity of the population the scouts will be able to recruit and retain. Hence, inclusive.
malandrew 9y ago
Tech has generally been one of the most inclusive places for people on the aspie/autistic side of the spectrum, but in recent years, it's become far more hostile. The reason for this is tact filters. http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html http://ozarque.livejournal.com/176349.html http://ozarque.livejournal.com/176349.html
- yellowapple 9y ago
  Tangential note about the second link: in my experience (having done my share of work on a cattle ranch when I was growing up), cows are very easy to move. Just look big. Put your arms out. Yell "heeeaugh!" at them. They'll spook and start moving away. This might differ based on the herd, though. My uncle's cattle are beef cattle, so not much in terms of friendly human interaction. Dairy cattle might have less fear of humans.
awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
> Think about your coworkers-- you've got some weird ones. Dyed hair? Check. Burlesque dancing? Check. Gender non-conforming? Check. Goes to Burning Man? Check, check, self-check. Any of these things could get you fired from teaching kindergarten. I worked in a startup developing enterprise security software and have been to defcon a few times. I've worked on wall street on trading software. I've never worked with a gay, gender non-conforming, burning man, burlesque dancing, etc. We were all fairly conservative ( though we didn't care what you did in your private life ) males with software engineering backgrounds. Not a single female. We wouldn't care if someone is gay, female, dyed hair, etc, but that certainly wouldn't fit in with any developers I've worked with. What you seem to be describing is "web development" or perhaps silicon valley "app development". The fringe developers who are lured in by the new tech bubble. Though I do agree that there was meritocracy in the tech industry, the new wave of "diversity" is destroying as semblance of meritocracy. What you are describing isn't real tech. It's hipster "tech". It's a laughable stereotype that has nothing to do with reality? Think about it. Bill Gates, Zuckerburg, Larry Page, Bezos, Ellison, Moore, Huang, etc are nothing you described. You seem like you watched the movie "hackers" or "swordfish" got your idea of the tech industry from it.
CM30 9y ago
> Think about your coworkers-- you've got some weird ones. Dyed hair? Check. Burlesque dancing? Check. Gender non-conforming? Check. Goes to Burning Man? Check, check, self-check. Any of these things could get you fired from teaching kindergarten. Not here I don't. Every tech company I've worked in mostly had the same types of people there as everywhere else. I've never seen a single person with dyed hair, nor anyone who goes to Burning Man, is gender non conforming or has unusual hobbies like burlesque dancing. Same with the companies I've interviewed at, applied for or toured around. I guess they'd skew younger than they would in other industries (though I haven't seen much of a difference on that front), but no one here is your hipster college student stereotype. Still, maybe it's different over in Silicon Valley compared to London.

balls187 9y ago

It is a good implementation. I think the crux is that it could be better, and for some (many?) it's not good enough.

humanrebar 9y ago

I mostly agree but the Brendan Eich firing and the dongle joke kerfuffle are counterfactuals. Or, taking a group example instead of individuals, "brogrammers". I think you can be unpopular or stick out in a lot of ways and still be successful, but I don't think it's as simple as come-as-you-are. You'll do fine (I'm sure Eich is personally fine) but you can easily hit some challenges along the way.

pyroinferno 9y ago

None of my coworkers are like. Also, if you want to keep tech weird doesn't that mean you need to reject the non-weird, the "conformists". How is that accepting at all?

tryitnow 9y ago

Lol, really? Tell that to software engineers past the age of 50. Look, every industry has its pros and cons. Sure tech is good for the Burning Man crowd (if you live in the Bay Area or other major American liberal city), but it certainly suffers from a ton of ageism, among other maladies. I think it all comes down to what sort of industry you personally feel more comfortable in. For me, that's tech, but if my conservative Christian grandmother were alive today she sure as heck wouldn't be comfortable in the Bay Area tech scene. Whenever you find yourself patting yourself on your back for being inclusive, just do the math - is your group really inclusive or is it just symbolically signifying inclusiveness?

com2kid 9y ago
> Tell that to software engineers past the age of 50. Come work at a BigCorp. Here at Microsoft, every age range is represented, W/L balance is great (people supporting online services who are responsible for The Phone that week aside), and every team I have been on strives for diversity and inclusion. That said, is it a pure meritocracy? Of course not, people who play politics and are good at getting assigned to high visibility projects get promoted faster. But good work is rewarded, and people are generally quite happy. Edit: The food isn't free, but the on campus medical clinic, summer farmers market, and other tiny perks that come from having a huge and expansive campus set amongst what looks like woodlands, more than balances it out. And, regardless of gender, no one will bat an eye if you go at 4:00pm to pick up your kids.
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  x2 BigCorps also have stability which "old" people need to support their families, especially when the kids are going to college.
  - sqeaky 9y ago
    x3+ I have contracted with numerous companies with old engineers. Insurance, Embedded Appliances and Defense had a reasonable distribution ages.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
civilian 9y ago
You're right, politics & age are major caveats. As someone who voted for Gary Johnson and laughed when Clinton lost, I definitely feel the lack of inclusion at times.

amackera 9y ago

It's a nice sentiment, but tech is very far from any sort of meritocracy. Falsely believing that it is a meritocracy can do more harm than good. I'm not trying to be negative towards your experience --- I'm glad you have a happy perception of the industry --- I just want to reinforce how important it is for us to improve diversity in all its forms before we start congratulating ourselves.

xxSparkleSxx 9y ago
Which industries do you think are MORE meritocratic than tech? Tech's not perfect, but I think they do it better than most (all?).
- owebmaster 9y ago
  Sports? Music?
  - yellowapple 9y ago
    I'm not really sure if music is all that meritocratic. In some circles, sure, but the mainstream seems to be dominated by pretty faces propped up by major labels. This does seem to be changing for the better thanks to the Internet, but there's still a very long way to go.
    - owebmaster 9y ago
      > I'm not really sure if music is all that meritocratic. One thing for sure is that no industry in the world is all that meritocratic. But Music and Sports (even with the mainstream whitewash) for sure has a better social and racial distribution than any other industry I can think of.
- seppin 9y ago
  > Which industries do you think are MORE meritocratic than tech? None of them are, but tech isn't any better.

bhnmmhmd 9y ago

I agree with what you said about meritocracy, mostly. A few months ago, I made a sexist statement here on HN about women and that they don't think logically [0]. Well, I couldn't be more ashamed and sorry for that. I've known some incredible women in tech ever since, and came to realize that I was wrong. Tech is actually a place where women can shine. [0] That statement got my account banned and I couldn't get it back. Edit: corrected my sentences to better convey my meaning.

krapp 9y ago
>A few months ago, I made a sexist statement here on HN about women and the fact that they don't think logically. For the future, if you're actually contrite, you should probably stop referring to that belief as a "fact".
- bhnmmhmd 9y ago
  Yeah, actually I didn't know how to say that in English. I'll edit it.

whatsmypwagain 9y ago

Tech is inclusive, accepting and weird as long as you're a liberal aged 40 and under.

gitlabuser 9y ago
Exactly. I'm liberal but I'm still astounded by the vitrol, hate, and language my colleagues use to describe conservatives and Republicans. Inclusion means accepting people as people, not accepting just the people who look, talk, and share the same beliefs as you.
- krapp 9y ago
  And meritocracy should mean none of that matters. Tech has a long traditional preference for leftist, anarchist and liberal politics and "non-conformist" behavior, but those are more about tribalism and value signaling and, ironically, conformity than merit. You can be a hoodie wearing, blue-haired transgendered commie and still write terrible code.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- balls187 9y ago
  > Inclusion means accepting people as people, not accepting just the people who look, talk, and share the same beliefs as you. No. There are some beliefs that run counter to our societies ideals. Those beliefs and the people who espouse them should be shunned. Harshly. Sorry you (theoretical Republican) don't think Gay people should be allowed to get married. Keep your backward ass beliefs to yourself.
  - Sk1pp 9y ago
    I think you just helped further the posters first statement.
    - 9y ago

ue_ 9y ago

A question is if we want a meritocracy at all, and whether such a model would be suitable for everyone, and further how merit is even judged; the problem isn't as you've mentioned "weirdness", it's that people can be treated worse for not even being "weird" at all. There have been various criticisms levelled at the idea of "colur blindness", and I think that when people say they are in favour of a meritocracy, they are in favour of continuing this idea that people start on a level field in which everyone's merit can be fairly assessed. Merit is assessed by each member of the team, and thus personal bias comes into play. The mere operation on the assesment of merit is insufficient to remove these biases, if they do exist. I don't like the idea of "sit down and do your work", beacuse to me it feels dehumanising. Yes, I know this is how "the system" works in the "real world" but I think this attitude is stopping us from realising that when working in a team we are all human and human issues need to be addressed. So in this sense I can appeal to you too in saying that efficiency may indeed be compromised with the "sit down and work" attitude when some people are clearly facing problems. Our mode of production does not optimise for the human side of interaction, nor the psychological aspect of the effects of production (joint or not) (i.e alienation) and for this reason I would say that we're already too meritocratic. People turn out to be pretty poor judges of merit, at least from the arguments I have seen. Meritocracy can lead to someone regarded as more experienced or doing more "important" work shutting down someone else who has legitimate criticisms.

gitlabuser 9y ago

I don't think that any of these examples show that Bay Area tech is a meritocracy or inclusive. The truth is the tech community has a culture and almost all the things you mentioned are almost stereotypical parts of it. These all fit within the tech culture: * Going to burning man * Going to SXSW * Working with the LGBT community * Tattoos / Dyed hair * Pole dancing * Wearing Stan Smiths * Being obsessed with high end coffee You shouldn't be patting yourself on the back that tech accepts these things. I've seen terrible examples of the community not accepting: * Those who believe in gun rights * Those who are strongly religious * Those who are homeless * Those who are lower class * Those who are H-1Bs (Indian outsourcing bias) * Those who are Republican * Those who are black * Those who are old / have grey hair Being inclusive and meritocratic doesn't mean accepting things that are within your culture. It means accepting those that are outside. I remember a colleague talking about a Dropbox all hands meeting where every one was patting themselves on the backs because the recruiting team had hired many from the LGBT community. He looked at me and said "Why the f* is everyone so happy? We literally have 1 black person in a company of almost 1,000" Seriously, if you think that having colleagues having dyed hair or going to Burning man is proof that you are meritocratic or inclusive you are in a huge bubble.

humanrebar 9y ago
> Being inclusive and meritocratic doesn't mean accepting things that are within your culture. I think there's some subtle definition creep in the word "inclusive" these days. It's starting to mean "cosmopolitan". I recall the recent STEM girl scouts story. One of the commenters called the initiative "inclusive", which isn't quite the right. It's the same girls scouts doing something different, so it's not more inclusive, really. Beneficial? Sure. Eclectic? Yeah. Progressive? OK. Inclusive? I'm not following.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > It's the same girls scouts doing something different Alternatively, it's a change by scout leadership which broadens the set of interests to which the Girl Scouts appeal, increasing the diversity of the population the scouts will be able to recruit and retain. Hence, inclusive.

malandrew 9y ago

Tech has generally been one of the most inclusive places for people on the aspie/autistic side of the spectrum, but in recent years, it's become far more hostile. The reason for this is tact filters. http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html http://ozarque.livejournal.com/176349.html http://ozarque.livejournal.com/176349.html

yellowapple 9y ago
Tangential note about the second link: in my experience (having done my share of work on a cattle ranch when I was growing up), cows are very easy to move. Just look big. Put your arms out. Yell "heeeaugh!" at them. They'll spook and start moving away. This might differ based on the herd, though. My uncle's cattle are beef cattle, so not much in terms of friendly human interaction. Dairy cattle might have less fear of humans.

awkwarddaturtle 9y ago

> Think about your coworkers-- you've got some weird ones. Dyed hair? Check. Burlesque dancing? Check. Gender non-conforming? Check. Goes to Burning Man? Check, check, self-check. Any of these things could get you fired from teaching kindergarten. I worked in a startup developing enterprise security software and have been to defcon a few times. I've worked on wall street on trading software. I've never worked with a gay, gender non-conforming, burning man, burlesque dancing, etc. We were all fairly conservative ( though we didn't care what you did in your private life ) males with software engineering backgrounds. Not a single female. We wouldn't care if someone is gay, female, dyed hair, etc, but that certainly wouldn't fit in with any developers I've worked with. What you seem to be describing is "web development" or perhaps silicon valley "app development". The fringe developers who are lured in by the new tech bubble. Though I do agree that there was meritocracy in the tech industry, the new wave of "diversity" is destroying as semblance of meritocracy. What you are describing isn't real tech. It's hipster "tech". It's a laughable stereotype that has nothing to do with reality? Think about it. Bill Gates, Zuckerburg, Larry Page, Bezos, Ellison, Moore, Huang, etc are nothing you described. You seem like you watched the movie "hackers" or "swordfish" got your idea of the tech industry from it.

CM30 9y ago