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I Almost Left Tech Today

177 points by CodeLikeAGirl 9y ago

mod 9y ago
> What the FUCK is wrong with this industry, that thinks it can destroy people like this? I would echo this sentiment if it were "What the FUCK is wrong with my colleagues?" I have never had a sour personal experience involving any coworkers in tech. Not sexism, racism, anything-ism. Never once, I'm over 5 years in (developer as well). I've had terrible experiences before I moved to tech. I know it's just an anecdote--like yours--and I feel fortunate and lucky. Anyway, I can't echo your sentiment that it's an entire industry. Nearly the entire tech industry would be appalled and disgusted by the behavior of the people in your story.
- whichdan 9y ago
  "I have never had a sour personal experience involving any coworkers in tech." Isn't that the same as saying "not all men" etc?
  - joelrunyon 9y ago
    No - it's saying don't extrapolate your personal experiences to an entire industry. That's not that crazy.
    - KirinDave 9y ago
      And since this is a totally new kind of story that hasn't been in the international headlines repeatedly over the last 5 years and a general topic of discussion for the last 25 we should ignore anec... Hey wait. It IS those things. Gosh maybe we should listen then? This urge to tell people anecdotes are not data is very very stale, when it comes to this topic. We have data and it's consistent with this anecdote. A woman being harassed in the workplace appears to be plausible and backed by data. So why does anyone feel like immediately posting a not-all-tech-orgs helps anyone buy the tech org you're representing?
      - joelrunyon 9y ago
        Never said that - The story wasn't "I almost quit my job" - the story was "I almost quit tech." If you want to keep generalizing - we can keep going to "I almost quit modern cities and went off to live as a hermit." I think it's important to share her story. However, it's more powerful when people don't overreach, and talk about their specific situation and how it had specific instances & issues because it allows people to understand, empathize & change things that are within their circle of influence. Saying "tech" has a problem is easy to say, but it doesn't actually provide any actionable insight on what to do about it.
        KirinDave 9y ago
        So... You want to mollify her point by saying, "Not all tech?" I'm just confused, because this seems like such an obvious statement. Of course not every workplace is this bad. Why does that have to be said here? The author seems to convey a frustration with what she feels is an industy-level problem. Given the events of the last 5 years and the general statistics for women in tech, maybe that's not unreasonable. Both your point and hers can coexist in the same narrative. It's just that your point seems a bit like you're mad the article wasn't copy-edited to avoid pedantic objections about implicit quantification.
        joelrunyon 9y ago
        You're looking for an argument that you're not going to get. I'm all about holding people accountable - but in order to do that you have to be specific about who is causing the issue & what they're doing. Have a good day.
    - rexaliquid 9y ago
      > I had studied women in tech for two years as part of my master’s in Sociology degree I don't think the author is extrapolating her personal experience to the industry. Her experience is a personal example of a trend she had previously studied.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - burkaman 9y ago
    No, it's sort of the opposite. "Not all men" in this case would be "not all companies have cultures like this". The response to "not all men" is "but (practically) all women have experienced harassment". So in this case one might say "even if not all companies do this, all employees have experienced it". And mod's comment is that at least one employee has not.
  - heartbreak 9y ago
    In some cases “not all men” is used to shut down the woman who is speaking. It’s like saying since not all men are like the man described in your experience, your experience doesn’t matter. In that case, “not all men” is a phrase I wouldn’t use. However, when the individual extrapolates his/her experience to the men in the industry as a whole, comprising of millions of different people, I think “not all men” or “not everyone in this industry” is a perfectly valid response.
- rhcom2 9y ago
  It's great that you've never had similar negative experiences but stories like these are common and, while not exclusive to this industry, very prevalent. You might think the entire industry would be disgusted but stories like these keep coming out, from high profile tech companies to small firms so it seems pretty clear this is a problem.
  - tdb7893 9y ago
    I think the issue comes up consistently when people say things like "what's wrong with people in this industry". The statement would seem to apply to literally everyone in the industry is bad, which is trivially untrue. Especially when you are doing all you can it's weird to just be lumped in with other people and being able to do nothing about it. I'm not saying that how she says things is bad but it often will make people defensive regardless of whether they agree that it's a problem or not
  - FT_intern 9y ago
    The tech industry shouldn't aim for perfection. It should aim for the average level of negative experiences across all industries, meaning it should have as many of these cases as other industries. It is not really a travesty or an indication of a problem in the tech industry if a few of these cases pop up from time to time. What is clear is that these cases are publicized to a disproportionate degree when they occur in the tech industry compared to other industries.
    - matthewbauer 9y ago
      I'm not sure it's just publicity though. It seems like having such a high male ratio can create these kinds of environment. You're right that perfection is probably impossible but I think 0 tolerance is still a good target.
    - strgcmc 9y ago
      You're kind of ignoring the huge chasm of a gap between "perfection" and "average level of negative experiences". Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
- eridius 9y ago
  It's been demonstrated time and time again that this is an issue that is rampant across the entire tech industry. Just because you personally haven't experienced this doesn't mean that's not true.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    It's rampant in almost every industry. Tech is just talking about it more.
    - rurban 9y ago
      When I was working in the film industry I once asked a french female colleague, why does she still prefers Germans over French male. French macho sexism was rampant in certain circles, and I never experienced that in Austria or Germany. (Not listing other cultures which are much worse than the French, of course.) She said: "Yes, even if they are sexist and extremely macho, I still prefer the French over the Germans, because the French adore women. Germans just don't care." I didn't know what I should answer then, because there are still certain aspects which I would never accept. Like this one in this story.
- rexaliquid 9y ago
  > I had studied women in tech for two years as part of my master’s in Sociology degree I think the author has more than her personal anecdote to back up her statement.
- briholt 9y ago
  Get ready for a wave of replies attempting to criticize and shame you for undermining the anti-male narrative.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    Prophecy.
- leesalminen 9y ago
  I shared this story with my company (90% women). Not a single person here has ever experienced anything as overtly sexist as this. They all agree though that they would've quit on the spot and found another job. This issue certainly isn't found in every tech company and I'd argue that it isn't even most. There's also selection bias (is that what this is called?) in that folks write blog posts about these kinds of negative experiences but very few write blog posts saying "my team is great, everyone is respectful and we all get along swimmingly."
  - rimliu 9y ago
    Maybe not many consider sharing the video with the word "fuck" in it sexist? We use WTF quite a lot, I'd never ever even dream to think about it as something sexist. Edit: my bad, I missed the part in which context that repsonse was posted. It changes the perspective a lot.
    - leesalminen 9y ago
      I think there's a difference between saying WTF (in Slack, or wherever) and replying "We don't give a fuck" in response to an article about sexism in the work place. At my company WTF is acceptable language but saying you don't care about a coworker's valid concern is not.
    - waterlink 9y ago
      The video "We don't give a fuck" was shared as a response to the author sharing a link to "an article on why so many women leave engineering".
    - Xoros 9y ago
      Actually it's not "fuck" but, word for word, "we beat our bollocks", which is a French equivalent of "we don't give a fuck"
    - sweetyclem 9y ago
      Hi Rimliu ! The video can be translated to "we don't give a fuck" but it literally means "we whip our balls with it" :p
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  I have done contracts at ad agencies, banks and insurances and from my experience these are much, much worse. Tech companies are super friendly places in comparison.
- fsociety 9y ago
  This is 100% right. I've only worked in a bar and a restaurant for a combined total of a year and I've heard so many women repeat very similar comments as to what offended her on a daily basis. Bad jokes about tits, pussys, and small dicks. Some people are aggressive, plain and simple. I've also worked with several women in tech who very strongly resisted the feminist movement and felt they needed to carve their own path. They are some of the most badass software developers I've ever worked with and without them their teams would falter into a horrible mess of terrible code and documentation. If anything I'm understating how important they are to the companies they work for. It's my personal belief that the changes with women's rights in our country over the several decades has been one of the best things to ever happen. For the majority of my life growing up it has been just me and my mom, and even in the past two decades I've seen a lot of really good change. I can't imagine the amount of change in the past four decades. The issue is that much like the BLM movement SOME people, not all, are turning it into an us versus them situation. This mentality is never productive and indefensible. Read the final statement "We won’t let them grind us down." Right now my Facebook is jam packed full of friends posting about how everyone needs to revolt against white men because of the transsexual military ban that Trump just enacted. I'd love to have a discussion with them about how Trump's actions don't represent white males everywhere, but they will turn hostile and rip me to shreds the moment I say anything which opposes that statement. They've done it before and I don't want to argue with my friends like that. All of this said, the manager is horribly sexist with comments like below. Even if that is true, there is a strong context in the situation. Why even bring it up, what point is he trying to make? "Later that night, he also said that women had a smaller brain. That’s when I couldn’t take it anymore and left." That's really fucked up, go finish the contract and find a better team to work with. Life is too short for shit like that. And please don't turn this into us versus them. Find better people to work with. EDIT: In the comment section responding to someone suggesting a company for her to work at, she wrote: "Thank you for the tip ! I have to keep fighting but it’s not easy, I know that 42 school is very sexist as well and there are only 7% of women there so I’m not so delighted to go there. But that school is very famous in France and I want to acquire those low level C language skills." Then don't go! Go work at some place where people treat you with respect.
  - egsy 9y ago
rc_kas 9y ago
Weird team, weird culture. That kind of shit is definitely not how it is on all tech teams, including the one I'm on.
- sgroppino 9y ago
  I agree. Most serious companies today have policies in place to prevent stuff like this.
- MadSax 9y ago
  Most stories like the OP's can be summed as follows: 1. Some insensitive asshole was lacking respect or maturity or professionalism in general. 2. Women, who are generally more conscientious than men, naturally react more strongly to said assholes. I think if you could magically make every employee not act like an asshole, reports of sexism would drop by 99%.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    This is a comforting fiction, but all you're doing is renaming the special and unfair treatment men give women to "assholes being assholes." And sure. Yes. That's not untrue. But read the article. She's particularly singled out for special treatment. Redefining the words or claiming it's actually women being "more sensitive" is just a word game to try making excuses. To do anything but agree, "This is sexist behavior."
    - Klockan 9y ago
      > She's particularly singled out for special treatment. Where did you read this? In the entire article she didn't even describe anyone speaking to her or about her except when they apologized, how can this be seen as singling her out?
omot 9y ago
Where do you work? This is unacceptable. They should be publicly shamed.
- nxsynonym 9y ago
  Normally I'm not against blasting companies based on a single data point/experience, but if this is really how those colleagues acted I would be shouting this companies name from the rooftops. It sucks that this is able to happen. It's even worse that its common enough to be thought of as an industry standard. I don't really have anything to add (for op) other than leave that company immediately, shame them, and move on.
  - mattnewton 9y ago
    I would advise the tactical route of leaving, acquiring gainful employment elsewhere, then shaming. Got to look out for yourself first.
Danihan 9y ago
This sounds like an HR issue. Does this company have a HR department? If so, what was their response?
- Adamantcheese 9y ago
  By the sound of it, it's only the 8 people in the entire company. No place for HR in a company that small.
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    In a company of 8 people, it's a "corporate culture" problem and is 100% the fault of leadership, which probably isn't going to change.
artursapek 9y ago
It sounds like your coworkers are man-children. That's not even just sexism, it's more a general level of extreme immaturity. I wouldn't work with idiots like that.
- alunchbox 9y ago
  I second this, pretty immature language to be using around a professional field. It never adds value.
0xCMP 9y ago
Thank you for sharing. This is a wonderful story/example of what a microagression is and how hurtful it can be even though it was not a targeted attack. I believe these stories, as they're shared and read, are making a difference which will end up being a better industry for all sexes. I believe that because stories like this have educated me and my intuition is that it's educated and influenced others too. Which means more change is coming.
jsymolon 9y ago
There are many great places to work. In my 20+ years, i've never ran across that toxic attitude. Maybe it's time to publicly shame those workplaces.
truebosko 9y ago
Don't leave tech -- Leave this trash fire of a company. All the best to you.
- itsthecourier 9y ago
  > Don't leave tech -- Leave this trash fire of a company. Instructions unclear. left a trash can in fire at the office. -Posted from jail
antgly 9y ago
You almost left tech because a bunch in tech are socially awkward weirdos who don't give a crap about other people. Period. It's not about being a woman... it's that the tech field is full of anti-social shit.
- cocklagger 9y ago
  The funniest thing is that many of the people on HN are this type.
- giarc 9y ago
  I don't think you can describe some of the actions as simply by those that are "socially awkward". Her director asked her to move to make room for his big dick. That's inappropriate whether you are introverted or extroverted.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Yo I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you've never had a woman and a manager walk up and say "Move over I need room for my big tits." I'm sure those experiences can exist in this world, but data we have paints a picture that these "socially awkward weirdos" aren't so weird and special and snowflake. They're garden variety sexists of the most boring and hurtful sort.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - Danihan 9y ago
    I have, back when I worked in restaurants.
    - orbitingpluto 9y ago
      I have also seen that sort of behaviour at the high level as a female president and her most immediate female cronies, Given the owner, she would not have climbed up in the company without acting like that. Whether they were emulating the corresponding male behaviours to get ahead or are just awful human beings is inconsequential, but my vote was for, "Why not both?" You have to challenge these people for your own mental well being. If it doesn't work out for your career prospects, oh well, at least you remain a content and happy human being.
Allvitende 9y ago
This is a reflection of your coworkers not an entire industry.
- ebcode 9y ago
  Rather, this is a reflection of an entire culture of woman-hating and female disempowerment that has been prevalent since Aeschylus wrote The Oresteia, of which these coworkers at this one small company are but a typical example.
cocklagger 9y ago
So, to recap: OP posts an article on French Slack about sexual harassment. Some team member replies with "don't give a fuck" meme. Team has a performance review in which reviewer makes callous and childish comments about his sexual organs. "Our app is big, like my dick." Are French people really this retarded? OP hasn't quit this toxic workplace yet.
- computerex 9y ago
  The dick comments are definitely out of place. That's not a professional work environment...
- deleted 9y ago
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- prashnts 9y ago
  I figure from the article that she's signed a contract with them, so maybe she can't quit yet?
pwinnski 9y ago
And one of the comments on the page is simply "Grow up." Which seems like part of the problem. But I don't want to judge someone out of context, so I clicked on their Medium username to see if maybe I'd misunderstood. It turns out every single comment that user has made is on seven different stories they can make negative comments about women and their accomplishments. This nastiness is pervasive, and often carried out by people so blind to their own participation that they deny what they themselves are doing.
- sokoloff 9y ago
  One account pulled that same move several times on medium and the conclusion is "this nastiness is pervasive" [in tech] rather than "that poster is an asshole"? I seriously doubt the person behind that account denies what they are doing.
nk1tz 9y ago
You should publicly denounce this company, in your article and here on HN. Grab as much evidence of the unacceptable behavior and put it online for all to see.
computerex 9y ago
Provide evidence. If it's so prevalent it shouldn't be hard. We all know about Uber, come up with something original. You are accusing the entire industry as a whole after all from little firms to giants.
- wfunction 9y ago
  These two articles went around a while ago (Microsoft, Pinterest): [1] https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/18/11262888 https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/18/11262888 [2] https://qz.com/659196 https://qz.com/659196
  - MadSax 9y ago
    Given the number of UFO sighting claims, you would think everyone's chance of encountering a silent flying saucer shaped object in their lifetime is near 100%. My point is, everyone sympathizes with stories of abuse/sexism/racism, but the number of articles written about them doesn't prove they happen frequently or even that they happen in the majority of workplaces.
    - rhcom2 9y ago
      Sexism claims can be backed up by facts, courts, admissions of guilt. They're nothing like UFO sightings.
- mustacheemperor 9y ago
  Just to add to the evidence others are posting, Dave McClure is a fine example and my go-to since people started complaining Uber's scandal wasn't "original enough." [0]https://500hats.com/im-a-creep-i-m-sorry-d2c13e996ea0 https://500hats.com/im-a-creep-i-m-sorry-d2c13e996ea0 [1]https://cherylyeoh.com/2017/07/03/shedding-light-on-the-black-box-of-inappropriateness/ https://cherylyeoh.com/2017/07/03/shedding-light-on-the-blac...
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Why are Uber and GitHub not sufficient as a basis for plausibility? Because you know about them? That's arbitrary.
ra1n85 9y ago
"Micro aggressions", rape, lives being "destroyed", "emoji-induced tears", and violence undermine the point of the article. Tragically comedic hyperbole. Pro tip: The next time someone offends you, call them on it. Stand up for yourself. We need more people talking and less "retreat and blog".
- crsmithdev 9y ago
  Thanks for providing yourself as a great example of the problem here.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Step 1: immediately introduce straw men to knock down. Step 2: blame the victim of sexual harassment for being there and not finding a way to not be harassed. Step 3: Right after telling them to stand up for themselves, immediately shame them for talking about the experience. It might give them resources to actually follow the advice you patronizingly tossed out in step 2. This playbook is old. It's unacceptable. It's a way to try and shield men from the consequences illegal, unproessional, and immoral actions. It's an attempt to undermine anyone who notices. You're doing something awful. Stop it.
  - MadSax 9y ago
    It's interesting how you decry the straw man but then set up your very own in Steps 2 and 3.
    - KirinDave 9y ago
      >> Step 1: immediately introduce straw men to knock down. > "Micro aggressions", rape, lives being "destroyed", "emoji-induced tears", and violence > Tragically comedic hyperbole. >> Step 2: blame the victim of sexual harassment for being there and not finding a way to not be harassed. > The next time someone offends you, call them on it. Stand up for yourself >> Step 3: Right after telling them to stand up for themselves, immediately shame them for talking about the experience. It might give them resources to actually follow the advice you patronizingly tossed out in step 2. > We need more people talking and less "retreat and blog" There are no straw men here. Only classic deflect-and-gaslight tactics older than either of us. But hey, you go on misusing the phrase "straw man", champ. Credit to your gender, etc. Stop defending sexism. If your behavior is indistinguishable from sexism save for intent, it is sexism. Period.
jneal 9y ago
I hope you can find a company where you are treated as an equal. I can honestly say I've never worked for a company like you describe, so it sounds more like an issue with the company and not the entire industry as you seem to suggest. As a male, I wouldn't stand for this type of behavior from my colleagues. Personally, I'd be going up the corporate ladder or human resources until I found someone that make this type of behavior cease, and if it didn't, I would be gone. I can't even imagine being on the receiving end of something like that.
- deleted 9y ago
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- sweetyclem 9y ago
  Bonjour JNeal, Thank you for your kind response. I don't even think it's a company wide problem, I'm certain the misogynist director is influencing every one in this department. I think my colleagues will be more careful in the future, and I will definitely go to the director's boss but I prefer to do it in 2 weeks, when my contract is done. Have a great evening!
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
howeyc 9y ago
Obviously this is over the line and totally unprofessional conduct by those mentioned in the story. Can anyone come up with a story or things that could be taken as sexist towards a male? I have a hard time knowing if I'm right in that I think I'd be fine with this as I don't take this extremely juvenile crap as seriously or if I'm just really having a hard time being empathetic because I just have never, nor can I fathom, anything rocking my sense of worth so hard. Maybe I need to experience being marginalized due to my sex or race or whatever to be empathetic? I dunno. I'm sure there's more to it that can cause someone to break down like the person who wrote this. I want to understand. Do I need a bunch of women to joke about guys with small dicks are worthless or something? Is that comparable? Should I be extremely offended and be willing to quit over that, like the world is against me because of it? I'm honestly wondering here. Please help me understand. I'm serious. I just don't know what it's like.
- cjbprime 9y ago
  As your comment wrestles with, you can't know what it's like, because you don't live under a systemic power imbalance. The fact that words aren't going to hurt you as much because they aren't coming from an environment of actual systemic discrimination doesn't mean that the people who are hurt by words under discrimination are wrong or irrational. It just means it's a thing you don't get to experience first-hand and should attempt to have empathy for nonetheless.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- burkaman 9y ago
  > I think I'd be fine with this as I don't take this extremely juvenile crap as seriously Do you think her coworkers were only like this in casual conversations and social situations, and treated her as a complete equal professionally? Or do you think their attitudes might have affected how they viewed her work, what she was assigned, her opportunities for advancement, etc. It doesn't matter if you "take it seriously" or not when people who have power over you are doing this. It's not about being offended, it's about being unequal.
deleted 9y ago
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karllager 9y ago
This experience makes me sick. There are very different places, where people are generally polite and professional and even fun. And where a sexist comment would not go unnoticed. Hope your next job will be like that. I once attended a hackathon around some humanitarian cause. Participants in general were nice. However, I joined a team, which had two kind of strong male characters in them. None of them would be able to discuss and think freely. One guy has worked in various startups. Without him telling me more about this, I could just infer how blame-driven his developer jobs were by seeing him interacting with the others. Really scary. The other imagined himself as an activist. So active, that in the end, we did not produce anything at that hackathon and I believe without these two males it would have been much simpler to actually get a discussion going and to have fun. In general, the more educated and diverse people are, the more they are able to think and think independently. The more people are responsible for themselves the more they are responsible for creating a work atmosphere, that is healthy for all participants - because hate and exclusion lessen motivation and there is one thing that need to go out to all businesses and managers and hierarchical elements: You cannot motivate people - you can only demotivate them. And this can happen much faster than one might believe.
- bbotond 9y ago
  Two "males"... I hate it so much when people who are against stereotyping women so readily stereotype men. Those were two people who happened to be men. Your comment is everything that is wrong with today's "feminist" movement.
  - karllager 9y ago
    I could have said "two people", it would have not changed the situation not much, I guess.
volune 9y ago
Wow. No one even attacked you directly, they merely made lewd comments in your presence. I can see how there is a huge disconnect if this is all it takes for someone to want to run back to a life of shelter.
- ryandamm 9y ago
  I think posting the "We don't give a f--k" video is a pretty direct attack. And even if that specific incident hadn't happened: a climate of gendered or sexually explicit comments is hostile. I'm sorry if you work somewhere that this isn't obvious or explicit. At my company, we're working to maintain a good culture, and none of the behavior described in the article -- none -- would be acceptable. Thankfully we haven't had to deal with that yet. But I'm formulating some new interview questions reading this HN thread....
rdiddly 9y ago
Company sounds like a bunch of clowns. This is one of the things VCs are thinking about when they talk about bringing in "adult supervision."
deleted 9y ago
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DrNuke 9y ago
The girl is right but sociopaths and weirdos will often outnumber her, not only in the coding field. I am afraid her reaction shows she has a long way to go before developing the thick skin she needs to survive and assert herself.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Alternatively we could use the beloved principle of meritocracy to point out that none of those people are the kind of geniuses that would offset the cost of a sexual harassment lawsuit and they should all be disciplined and possibly fired for their unprofessional conduct. But sure. Tell her to 'grow up.' Tell her that because there are bad people in the world, it's her responsibility and role to accept and cater to them.
mustacheemperor 9y ago
Everyone begging for this company to be doxxed is no doubt just hoping to evaluate it and begin a "no true scotsman" argument that excludes this behavior from our industry from a whole, and, most importantly, excludes their own team/company from being part of the problem.
pm90 9y ago
I want to ask this question as gently as possible: Is it acceptable or common in French culture/companies to use a phrase such as "Move over I need a place for my big dick"? It sounds so aggressive and hare-brained that I can't really imagine anyone in the US saying that without begging for a sexual harassment case targeted towards them. To be 100% clear: I'm not justifying this behavior at all. My point is that when having a beer with friends, its common to joke around like that. I'm just wondering if in French culture, when going out for drinks, if its common or socially acceptable to make these jokes. From the lady's viewpoint, it seems like its not.
- waterlink 9y ago
  From a straight-man point of view (me) it is also not acceptable.
  - tickthokk 9y ago
    From a manager, while in the workplace, sure. At a bar, drinking beer? I dunno, sounds like they were joking around. If I can't talk about body parts at a bar while drinking beer, I'm not sure where you can.
    - waterlink 9y ago
      Why would I want to talk about these parts in the bar? Or why would I want to hear about them from someone else? I can't talk about these parts at the bar. And I'll feel very uncomfortable and will have to ask that person in the group to stop if they were to do that. I hold a belief that one needs to maintain professional (or at least semi-professional) conduct in the bar too. Otherwise, it is just too immature.
    - corobo 9y ago
      At a bar drinking my default reaction would probably be to barely scoot across the bench and say "that should give you plenty of room" In a workplace environment though it's definitely be a weird comment to hear
zapt02 9y ago
Every time I see a story like this, I am honestly wondering where all these people are working, as I have never encountered anyone near these levels of sexism in many years of working in the tech industry (albeit in Sweden). What rubs me the wrong way though is when people project experiences like these onto their own experiences of lesser magnitude. For example, a while back a colleague asked me for a sit-down and explained that she was frustrated that i had "mansplained" her in a meeting. She was fuming. At worst, I might have interrupted her at one point or two inadvertently because there was a heated discussion on a technical topic. I don't want to rob her of these feelings but I feel like overall we're talking about some actual sexist idiots and then have a much larger layer of people who are just looking to be mad about something.
- gorkonsine 9y ago
  >I have never encountered anyone near these levels of sexism in many years of working in the tech industry (albeit in Sweden). Nor have I, albeit in the US (even in the parts that are Trump-land). You're European, so maybe you know more about French culture than me: is this something that's endemic to French culture perhaps? Over here in the US, I would be shocked to hear about this crap in any place other than one run by a bunch of 25-year-old frat bros.
  - zapt02 9y ago
    This type of thing exists, there's even a saying for it in swedish - "grabbig stämning" (loosely translated: "frat-house feeling"). But the last time I remember someone behaving like this was when I was just starting university, at around 19-20 yo, and even then that was just stuff between guys, never to a girl. We are very conscious of how we talk in sweden, and nobody would drop a comment vaguely similar to the ones mentioned above, unless they really hate their job and want to get fired.
  - gorkonsine 9y ago
    After all the massive down-voting I'm getting now, and all the pro-dick-joke comments, I've changed my opinion. Apparently American tech workers (esp. Silicon Valley ones, since they dominate the readership here) really are a bunch of sexist pigs. TIL. I didn't realize I was hanging out with such a bunch of low-lifes. Honestly, between the frat-boy behavior of techies, and the open-plan offices, I really wish I had gone into the legal field instead. My girlfriend in legal has a wonderful (and quiet) office, and never has any problem with misogyny or blatantly crude and unprofessional behavior at work. The tech industry has really turned into garbage in the past couple of decades.
Steeeve 9y ago
I'm a guy, and I would quit if that's the kind of behavior I could expect out of my colleagues on a regular basis. I've worked in the industry for a long time, and I have never seen anything like that. It seems like a very bad move to alienate 50% of the potential workforce.
samuell 9y ago
Why is this flagged?
sokoloff 9y ago
> Ok, explain me how gender neutral "We don't give a fuck" is sexist Clémentine shared an article on her team Slack about "I found an article on why so many women leave engineering, and wanted to share it with my colleagues." One of her colleagues replied on the channel with a video saying "We don't give a fuck" The combination of those two things is sexist by any possible interpretation I can think of.
- tbrownaw 9y ago
  Things that probably express similar sentiment, but with different language: * "Not my circus, not my monkeys." * "How do things in those other places concern *us*?" * "People suck, news at 11." * "You think we haven't been hearing this every day already?" * "Thanks, but we already have more than enough things to be outraged about." * "That doesn't look actionable." * "We're here to do work, not to agitate for social change." Does phrasing it in any of those ways still look "sexist by any possible interpretation I can think of"?
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    No. Some of those are borderline supportive (#3, #4). The others are at least slanted towards "[maybe] it's a problem, but not one that we're going to fix". They all convey much more "we heard what you said" than "We don't give a fuck" does. Just MHO.
  - calibration263 9y ago
    A lot of these I don't think are different phrasings, they're different in meaning as well. A closer rephrasing with similar sentiment is: "No one cares" All the phrasing you provided are combinations of: 1) not applicable to me/us 2) we can't do anything about it For anyone struggling with empathy, imagine you're feeling frustrated with something, you share with your coworkers, one replies publicly "no one cares" and everyone else laughs. Then the next day the thing that was frustrating you happens a number of times and you can't say anything because it's clear that everyone doesn't care.
spyhi 9y ago
This reminds me of an extremely eloquent comment I saw over on Reddit a while ago about how men being assholes to each other is actually a form of male bonding, and there is a delicate nuance to our rough-edged camaraderie. [1] I was raised in a gentle household by a nerd and a feminist, so when I joined the Army as an infantryman, I absolutely had to learn how this worked and can absolutely attest that it's a real thing. Given the later apologies, it sounds like it's possible the office was bro-ing it up with her and may have even thought they were welcoming her into the tribe, so to speak. (Of course, they could have all just been misogynist assholes, too...sad how there can be little difference) Thing is, most women absolutely DO NOT respond well to that kind of male bonding. And, honestly, they probably shouldn't--I think this "emotional sonar" is a maladjusted response to men being told they can't express their feelings. Given this, we probably shouldn't be exposing women to that kind of environment either. I guess this kind of underscores why you need women in the workplace. It's too easy for an all-male space to fall into this kind of emotional language and interaction framework, which is "hostile but comprehensible" to those in the culture, but completely alien to those who aren't--women and foreigners alike. At the very least, we (meaning everyone, not just men) should try to be aware that not everyone bonds the same, and bonding activities for some people and genders may be anti-bonding and hostile to others. I want to make clear, I'm not trying to justify what happened, but I feel like often these articles are kind of one-sided, which can make it difficult to diagnose what's going on. The problem with saying "don't be misogynist" is I suspect few people identify as one but, on the other hand, we can identify our baggage and try to examine critically how it affects others. Either way, sorry OP had to experience that, whether mismatched bonding attempts or actual hostility and misogyny. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/5dpezd/girls_what_things_guys_like_to_do_to_each_other/da6fi9l/?context=3&st=ivp2r7tf&sh=16e79aa2 https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/5dpezd/girls_what...
- tickthokk 9y ago
  I think a good example is the "Our app is huge, like my dick." line. As a guy, this line was pretty funny, and I could see myself saying it (on an all male team). I might not say it in front of female coworkers though, but if I worked closely with one I may say it within earshot without thinking about it. It certainly wasn't an attack on the poster. Are we just not allowed to talk about genitalia? I guess as a baseline rule it's inappropriate, sure, but he's not being suggestive or soliciting. As described, it's obviously a joke. Not sure where the offense is here other than he said "dick" in the workplace within earshot of someone who doesn't want to hear that. I'll finish by saying that the rest of it was certainly uncalled for, but this one instance doesn't really stand on it's own as offensive.
labster 9y ago
Oh look, a few hackernews flagged this article to keep women in their place. Stay classy. Anyway, if I saw what OP saw at her company, I would quit. And I identify as male. And I think we owe it to women to deny sexist companies access to hiring the 90% of programmers who aren't jerks. Well, 80%.
KirinDave 9y ago
It's a terrible example of how these stories are suppressed when Hacker News allows them to be flagged off. This story is relevant to tech, compelling and topical. It was receiving upvotes that put it on the front page. But it got flagged to oblivion in under an hour. Edit: Update, either enough people vouched on an invisible article (via twitter?) to unflag, or the mods intervened. We'll see.
- striking 9y ago
  Remember, if you find an article worthy of discussion being flagged or otherwise suppressed, email the mods. They'll take care of it.
bpyne 9y ago
The team described may exhibit an extreme behavior. But, I think it's fair to say that women experience "death by a thousand cuts" in male-dominated fields, not just Tech. I also think that young men learn the lesson of disregarding women early. I started coaching co-ed youth basketball recently. At ages 10-12, boys are already disregarding their female teammates as potential contributors. The boys aren't overtly hostile. They just don't even think about passing to the girls. They don't trust the girls to play good defense, so the boys try to cover too much floor, ironically allowing more points to be scored against us. I'm steadily working with them on trust and inclusiveness. But, it amazes me that they're so young and already need to unlearn negative behaviors.
holydude 9y ago
I understand your stand. But it is not about industry or men but people in general. I do not care about being in a professional environment where my she-boss adresses me by my surname but never forgets to mention how expensive we are. Yeah no sexist jokes but you still feel like shit. And (now generalizing a lot) women are control freaks. Also when in power they totally refuse the concept of criticism. You just cant really mention who/what is wrong. None is ever accountable for anything. Sigh.
vlodiag 9y ago
Just quit and find SJW friendly company (will be hard though as complaining and victim complex rarely makes money). You are clearly a wrong fit there. To get upset by such a comment as "Our app is big just like my dick" needs some special "special snowflake". Women are very valuable employees just like man only and only if they provide value and make money to the employer. The more the better. That's the only thing that matters and that's when your opinions matters to your employer. Otherwise you are just a toxic asset bitching about non issues and employer is probably just better off if he lets you go.
- sctb 9y ago
  There's no place for vicious comments like this on Hacker News, so we've banned the account.
  - vlodiag 9y ago
    vicious?
adamc 9y ago
Seems like her colleagues have the maturity of 15-year-olds.
omot 9y ago
Why was this flagged?!
Rjevski 9y ago
In this case it looks more like your team/company is shit. Even as a male something like "I need room for my big dick" would've made me very uncomfortable in a professional setting.
negativ0 9y ago
from the article looks like everything started just after the author posted a link on the slack channel. maybe just avoid posting this articles on slack. you are supposed to work not to rise a fire. if you had problem about sexism in the company you should leave/complain and not trying to fix something chitchatting on slack.
gorkonsine 9y ago
Not exactly. Suppose you're living in Saudi Arabia as a woman, and men there are treating you very poorly and in a sexist manner. Should you conclude that "men have a big problem with sexism"? No. The correct conclusion is that "men in Saudi Arabia have a big problem with sexism". Go to someplace like Norway and you're probably not going to see the same dynamic. The same is likely true here: she's in France. I've never worked in the tech industry in France. However, I've worked in a bunch of different companies, in different industries, as a software engineer here in the US, and on both coasts too. I've never seen behavior like this. So IMO, the conclusion should be "the tech industry in France is misogynistic". The answer for her, therefore, IMO is to get the hell out of France.
- dang 9y ago
  > The answer for her, therefore, IMO is to get the hell out of France Regional and cultural differences are real, and have a much larger influence on Hacker News than is commonly realized. But bringing that up as you did in this thread, by pouring national flamebait into a gender flamewar, is definitely not using HN as intended. Moreover we've warned you repeatedly and asked you to fix this and you haven't. Therefore I've banned you again. If you genuinely want to use HN as intended you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com, but would you please stop creating accounts to break HN's rules with? We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14868502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14868502 and marked it off-topic.
swframe2 9y ago
Slightly off topic but ... Women in tech please do this ... Focus on a different and more important problem. Find a Director/VP level employee to be your mentor. Basically, I feel, to fix these issues we need more leadership diversity. Focus on getting more power.
artorias 9y ago
>8 males How does she know what her co-workers identify as? This woman is sexist, homophobic, and probably a deeply rooted misogynist.
jriot 9y ago
I have often wondered if it is sexism or women getting used to how men treat each other. Currently, I am a data scientist, but prior to that I was an air traffic controller (ATC). ATC training was brutal. You come in at 0530 for work/training, and you better be ready for a simulator first thing in the morning. Make a mistake get ready to be berated in front of everyone, and be scheduled to work the weekend. If you did well, you got to control real planes that day and you better perform exceptional while answering your trainers questions or forget controlling tomorrow. Questions would include, what is the separation between a heavy and small on final inside the approach gate? What is the radial and DME for xxxx point? What ABQ center's frequency? We treated everyone the same - men and women. Women would often cry, yet they understood they weren't being treated differently from their male counterparts as every trainee was treated as s*. We had a 20% success rate with roughly 2 years of training. When you became a certified controller, it was a big deal and for males, every controller in the facility would punch the metal ATC badge into your chest the day of your final rating- it was a rite of passage. Men treat each other differently and test each other differently, women are just learning this it seems.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  I wonder what % of the people who "failed" would have made excellent air traffic controllers?
  - jriot 9y ago
    None of them would have. It is a stressful job. We created simulated stressful environment and they couldn't handle it. We weren't going to spare their feelings and risk other people's lives.
    - TheLilHipster 9y ago
      That point-of-view is so important IMO. Because of the job environment, as an employee you UNDERSTAND the CONTEXT and INTENT behind the working conditions. This logic applies to life and all social interactions. Assume innocence, positivity and optimism in the INTENT behind the words of strangers - until they give you a reason to think otherwise. To anyone who disagrees: If you do not subscribe to this ideal, then what are you advocating as an alternative? Everyone be extremely PC and hyper-aware of everything they say and the indefinite amount of ways their words can be interpreted? it makes just no sense. Crying foul, fighting to get what you "want" in the moment, rather then what is true and just - I'm just tired of it all, burnt out by the lack of rationality in these sorts of discussions.
cosmic_ape 9y ago
That's a terrible team, hopefully non representative. I haven't ever seen a work environment that would be even close to producing something like this. However, looking at the article itself, there is some irony in using a picture of a woman in a bra, tousled hair, as a title picture for an article on sexism. Is this how the author comes to work? Is this how a woman programmer should be pictured? Its also not the first time these type of articles, with these type of pictures appear, even here on HN.
- _sp 9y ago
  The image seems to be a representation of the oppression women in tech face. I guess the model is wearing that because she's in water. Only the jeans look out of place IMO, not the swim appropriate top.
qb45 9y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html What to Submit On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. I too normally dislike things disappearing from the front page in 5 minutes but I made an exception for this submission and flagged it because such stories are dime in a dozen and this one brings zero new information, solves nothing and mainly just perpetuates hostility.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  So you're saying you flagged this despite the fact that it is in not off-topic. Because you dislike the narrative it establishes?
  - qb45 9y ago
    Do I need to repeat? I flagged it because such stories are dime in a dozen and this one brings zero new information¹, solves nothing² and mainly just perpetuates hostility³. 1. See the "off-topic" paragraph quoted above why it's relevant. And, BTW, this rule makes sense - when it comes to politics, usually both sides have already heard all arguments and if they still remain in disagreement, repetition is unlikely to bring anything but flamewar. 2. See paragraph above. 3. Which in itself might be a good reason, although I'm admittedly stretching it here because I selfishly refuse to take responsibility for other people's emotions and if I found this story interesting, I would have probably upvoted it. I upvoted that one for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14692038 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14692038 because I found TFA informative and there is nothing you can do about it. > Because you dislike the narrative it establishes? Absolutely, it's harmful because words like "hostile", "sexism", "harassment", etc suggest malicious intent which usually just isn't there. It antagonizes men who have no intention of harming women and scares women in situations when no harm was actually meant. It deprives women of ability to effectively complain by making them question whether it makes sense to bring it up with the offender at all. And even when they decide to talk about it, it pre-trains them to paint it as oppression which predictably gets reactions ranging from "WTF" to "we don't give a fuck, your paranoia is your problem".
revmoo 9y ago
None of those things are sexist, they're just inappropriate.
justadeveloper2 9y ago
I wanted to offer some thoughts to the author of this piece. I don't wish to belittle you or make light of your situation. But I do want to point out a few things. Foremost, you need to understand that free expression is not illegal and does not necessarily fall under sexual harassment law, most of which deal only with harassment by those in positions of authority against their direct reports. Companies have all kinds of sexual harassment policies they have cooked up but those policies are for protecting the company against lawsuits, not you. There is no legal recourse and probably no HR recourse, either. Annoying cads exist everywhere. How you deal with them is what matters and it doesn't just happen to women and minorities, as much as our culture of identity politics and victimhood would lead us to believe. I'm a white guy (oh so privileged) and have had plenty of horrifying incidents with people whom I have worked with, some to the point where I quit the job I had just to be free from my antagonists, which is exactly what they wanted. What I am trying to tell you is that there are sociopaths and people with Borderline Personality Disorder and they are everywhere in corporate America and waiting for their next victim to walk by. There is no avoiding all of them. All you can do is learn to deal with them in such a way that it does not tear you down psychologically--and yes, sometimes that means getting away from your abuser. I once had a co-worker who had it out for me for no particular reason other than he is an out-and-out asshole seeking to protect his comfy, do-nothing job that my software would eventually have automated out of existence. He would seed distrust and fear about my project behind my back to all the major stakeholders, every meeting I was in with him was nothing but a knife-fight with me defending my team of developers from outrageous allegations, he used every sneaky trick in the book to attack my credibility without once taking a direct, personal jab at me. Despite that, I was completely undermined and ineffective in my role. I talked to my manager, to HR, none of them did a damn thing about this guy. He was absolute poison to that company...crickets. So I know a thing or two about these kinds of issues having been harassed for months on end albeit not in a sexual manner. In another case, there was a VMS administrator at a major healthcare company who didn't want to see his comfy VMS admin job end by my team replacing the crappy, way out of date, COBOL-based shit system that barely worked. He won--I gave up and left that place for greener pastures and that company is still stupidly running that piece of crap system at the cost of millions of dollars and it was so bad that it cost them all their profits in a major line of business. All because of one intractable personality and really nothing else.
BrandoElFollito 9y ago
This particular environment is obviously insane. The people are probably mentally instable with a huge complex. This said, I would hate to have in my team coders who instead of coding post stuff about women persecuted in tech, men persecuted in football, whites persecuted in driving and blacks persecuted in sudoku. Or whatever. When I work I see professionals. On s'en bat les couilles that they are men or women.
planck01 9y ago
I don't see any sexism in this story. Some people just are rude and there are assholes everywhere. What the author describes is a group dynamic going sour and alpha behavior. Everone, male or female, will experience this at some point in their life. That sucks, but it will never change as it is part of the human condition. Also, being a woman doesn't mean you are entitled to emotionel gentler treatment.
borplk 9y ago
I have not read the post. I just want to say whatever "ism" is involved you can find it in any industry you wish. It's a person thing not an industry thing. Have you seen any discussions about "sexism in the coal mining industry"? Somehow in tech people attribute each and every personal experience and anecdote to the industry and as far as I can see it's unique to tech. When a female employee has her ass grabbed in your average boring accounting firm it doesn't make headlines. But if it happens in a tech startup office in SV suddenly it's treated like a crisis in the entire industry. I don't get it.
SoCool 9y ago
Seriously..someone needs to get fired to use such profanity over slack channel in an office environment

177 points by CodeLikeAGirl 9y ago

mod 9y ago

> What the FUCK is wrong with this industry, that thinks it can destroy people like this? I would echo this sentiment if it were "What the FUCK is wrong with my colleagues?" I have never had a sour personal experience involving any coworkers in tech. Not sexism, racism, anything-ism. Never once, I'm over 5 years in (developer as well). I've had terrible experiences before I moved to tech. I know it's just an anecdote--like yours--and I feel fortunate and lucky. Anyway, I can't echo your sentiment that it's an entire industry. Nearly the entire tech industry would be appalled and disgusted by the behavior of the people in your story.

whichdan 9y ago
"I have never had a sour personal experience involving any coworkers in tech." Isn't that the same as saying "not all men" etc?
- joelrunyon 9y ago
  No - it's saying don't extrapolate your personal experiences to an entire industry. That's not that crazy.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    And since this is a totally new kind of story that hasn't been in the international headlines repeatedly over the last 5 years and a general topic of discussion for the last 25 we should ignore anec... Hey wait. It IS those things. Gosh maybe we should listen then? This urge to tell people anecdotes are not data is very very stale, when it comes to this topic. We have data and it's consistent with this anecdote. A woman being harassed in the workplace appears to be plausible and backed by data. So why does anyone feel like immediately posting a not-all-tech-orgs helps anyone buy the tech org you're representing?
    - joelrunyon 9y ago
      Never said that - The story wasn't "I almost quit my job" - the story was "I almost quit tech." If you want to keep generalizing - we can keep going to "I almost quit modern cities and went off to live as a hermit." I think it's important to share her story. However, it's more powerful when people don't overreach, and talk about their specific situation and how it had specific instances & issues because it allows people to understand, empathize & change things that are within their circle of influence. Saying "tech" has a problem is easy to say, but it doesn't actually provide any actionable insight on what to do about it.
      - KirinDave 9y ago
        So... You want to mollify her point by saying, "Not all tech?" I'm just confused, because this seems like such an obvious statement. Of course not every workplace is this bad. Why does that have to be said here? The author seems to convey a frustration with what she feels is an industy-level problem. Given the events of the last 5 years and the general statistics for women in tech, maybe that's not unreasonable. Both your point and hers can coexist in the same narrative. It's just that your point seems a bit like you're mad the article wasn't copy-edited to avoid pedantic objections about implicit quantification.
        joelrunyon 9y ago
        You're looking for an argument that you're not going to get. I'm all about holding people accountable - but in order to do that you have to be specific about who is causing the issue & what they're doing. Have a good day.
  - rexaliquid 9y ago
    > I had studied women in tech for two years as part of my master’s in Sociology degree I don't think the author is extrapolating her personal experience to the industry. Her experience is a personal example of a trend she had previously studied.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- burkaman 9y ago
  No, it's sort of the opposite. "Not all men" in this case would be "not all companies have cultures like this". The response to "not all men" is "but (practically) all women have experienced harassment". So in this case one might say "even if not all companies do this, all employees have experienced it". And mod's comment is that at least one employee has not.
- heartbreak 9y ago
  In some cases “not all men” is used to shut down the woman who is speaking. It’s like saying since not all men are like the man described in your experience, your experience doesn’t matter. In that case, “not all men” is a phrase I wouldn’t use. However, when the individual extrapolates his/her experience to the men in the industry as a whole, comprising of millions of different people, I think “not all men” or “not everyone in this industry” is a perfectly valid response.
rhcom2 9y ago
It's great that you've never had similar negative experiences but stories like these are common and, while not exclusive to this industry, very prevalent. You might think the entire industry would be disgusted but stories like these keep coming out, from high profile tech companies to small firms so it seems pretty clear this is a problem.
- tdb7893 9y ago
  I think the issue comes up consistently when people say things like "what's wrong with people in this industry". The statement would seem to apply to literally everyone in the industry is bad, which is trivially untrue. Especially when you are doing all you can it's weird to just be lumped in with other people and being able to do nothing about it. I'm not saying that how she says things is bad but it often will make people defensive regardless of whether they agree that it's a problem or not
- FT_intern 9y ago
  The tech industry shouldn't aim for perfection. It should aim for the average level of negative experiences across all industries, meaning it should have as many of these cases as other industries. It is not really a travesty or an indication of a problem in the tech industry if a few of these cases pop up from time to time. What is clear is that these cases are publicized to a disproportionate degree when they occur in the tech industry compared to other industries.
  - matthewbauer 9y ago
    I'm not sure it's just publicity though. It seems like having such a high male ratio can create these kinds of environment. You're right that perfection is probably impossible but I think 0 tolerance is still a good target.
  - strgcmc 9y ago
    You're kind of ignoring the huge chasm of a gap between "perfection" and "average level of negative experiences". Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
eridius 9y ago
It's been demonstrated time and time again that this is an issue that is rampant across the entire tech industry. Just because you personally haven't experienced this doesn't mean that's not true.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  It's rampant in almost every industry. Tech is just talking about it more.
  - rurban 9y ago
    When I was working in the film industry I once asked a french female colleague, why does she still prefers Germans over French male. French macho sexism was rampant in certain circles, and I never experienced that in Austria or Germany. (Not listing other cultures which are much worse than the French, of course.) She said: "Yes, even if they are sexist and extremely macho, I still prefer the French over the Germans, because the French adore women. Germans just don't care." I didn't know what I should answer then, because there are still certain aspects which I would never accept. Like this one in this story.
rexaliquid 9y ago
> I had studied women in tech for two years as part of my master’s in Sociology degree I think the author has more than her personal anecdote to back up her statement.
briholt 9y ago
Get ready for a wave of replies attempting to criticize and shame you for undermining the anti-male narrative.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Prophecy.
leesalminen 9y ago
I shared this story with my company (90% women). Not a single person here has ever experienced anything as overtly sexist as this. They all agree though that they would've quit on the spot and found another job. This issue certainly isn't found in every tech company and I'd argue that it isn't even most. There's also selection bias (is that what this is called?) in that folks write blog posts about these kinds of negative experiences but very few write blog posts saying "my team is great, everyone is respectful and we all get along swimmingly."
- rimliu 9y ago
  Maybe not many consider sharing the video with the word "fuck" in it sexist? We use WTF quite a lot, I'd never ever even dream to think about it as something sexist. Edit: my bad, I missed the part in which context that repsonse was posted. It changes the perspective a lot.
  - leesalminen 9y ago
    I think there's a difference between saying WTF (in Slack, or wherever) and replying "We don't give a fuck" in response to an article about sexism in the work place. At my company WTF is acceptable language but saying you don't care about a coworker's valid concern is not.
  - waterlink 9y ago
    The video "We don't give a fuck" was shared as a response to the author sharing a link to "an article on why so many women leave engineering".
  - Xoros 9y ago
    Actually it's not "fuck" but, word for word, "we beat our bollocks", which is a French equivalent of "we don't give a fuck"
  - sweetyclem 9y ago
    Hi Rimliu ! The video can be translated to "we don't give a fuck" but it literally means "we whip our balls with it" :p
maxxxxx 9y ago
I have done contracts at ad agencies, banks and insurances and from my experience these are much, much worse. Tech companies are super friendly places in comparison.
fsociety 9y ago
This is 100% right. I've only worked in a bar and a restaurant for a combined total of a year and I've heard so many women repeat very similar comments as to what offended her on a daily basis. Bad jokes about tits, pussys, and small dicks. Some people are aggressive, plain and simple. I've also worked with several women in tech who very strongly resisted the feminist movement and felt they needed to carve their own path. They are some of the most badass software developers I've ever worked with and without them their teams would falter into a horrible mess of terrible code and documentation. If anything I'm understating how important they are to the companies they work for. It's my personal belief that the changes with women's rights in our country over the several decades has been one of the best things to ever happen. For the majority of my life growing up it has been just me and my mom, and even in the past two decades I've seen a lot of really good change. I can't imagine the amount of change in the past four decades. The issue is that much like the BLM movement SOME people, not all, are turning it into an us versus them situation. This mentality is never productive and indefensible. Read the final statement "We won’t let them grind us down." Right now my Facebook is jam packed full of friends posting about how everyone needs to revolt against white men because of the transsexual military ban that Trump just enacted. I'd love to have a discussion with them about how Trump's actions don't represent white males everywhere, but they will turn hostile and rip me to shreds the moment I say anything which opposes that statement. They've done it before and I don't want to argue with my friends like that. All of this said, the manager is horribly sexist with comments like below. Even if that is true, there is a strong context in the situation. Why even bring it up, what point is he trying to make? "Later that night, he also said that women had a smaller brain. That’s when I couldn’t take it anymore and left." That's really fucked up, go finish the contract and find a better team to work with. Life is too short for shit like that. And please don't turn this into us versus them. Find better people to work with. EDIT: In the comment section responding to someone suggesting a company for her to work at, she wrote: "Thank you for the tip ! I have to keep fighting but it’s not easy, I know that 42 school is very sexist as well and there are only 7% of women there so I’m not so delighted to go there. But that school is very famous in France and I want to acquire those low level C language skills." Then don't go! Go work at some place where people treat you with respect.
- egsy 9y ago

rc_kas 9y ago

Weird team, weird culture. That kind of shit is definitely not how it is on all tech teams, including the one I'm on.

sgroppino 9y ago
I agree. Most serious companies today have policies in place to prevent stuff like this.
MadSax 9y ago
Most stories like the OP's can be summed as follows: 1. Some insensitive asshole was lacking respect or maturity or professionalism in general. 2. Women, who are generally more conscientious than men, naturally react more strongly to said assholes. I think if you could magically make every employee not act like an asshole, reports of sexism would drop by 99%.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  This is a comforting fiction, but all you're doing is renaming the special and unfair treatment men give women to "assholes being assholes." And sure. Yes. That's not untrue. But read the article. She's particularly singled out for special treatment. Redefining the words or claiming it's actually women being "more sensitive" is just a word game to try making excuses. To do anything but agree, "This is sexist behavior."
  - Klockan 9y ago
    > She's particularly singled out for special treatment. Where did you read this? In the entire article she didn't even describe anyone speaking to her or about her except when they apologized, how can this be seen as singling her out?

omot 9y ago

Where do you work? This is unacceptable. They should be publicly shamed.

nxsynonym 9y ago
Normally I'm not against blasting companies based on a single data point/experience, but if this is really how those colleagues acted I would be shouting this companies name from the rooftops. It sucks that this is able to happen. It's even worse that its common enough to be thought of as an industry standard. I don't really have anything to add (for op) other than leave that company immediately, shame them, and move on.
- mattnewton 9y ago
  I would advise the tactical route of leaving, acquiring gainful employment elsewhere, then shaming. Got to look out for yourself first.

Danihan 9y ago

This sounds like an HR issue. Does this company have a HR department? If so, what was their response?

Adamantcheese 9y ago
By the sound of it, it's only the 8 people in the entire company. No place for HR in a company that small.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  In a company of 8 people, it's a "corporate culture" problem and is 100% the fault of leadership, which probably isn't going to change.

artursapek 9y ago

It sounds like your coworkers are man-children. That's not even just sexism, it's more a general level of extreme immaturity. I wouldn't work with idiots like that.

alunchbox 9y ago
I second this, pretty immature language to be using around a professional field. It never adds value.

0xCMP 9y ago

Thank you for sharing. This is a wonderful story/example of what a microagression is and how hurtful it can be even though it was not a targeted attack. I believe these stories, as they're shared and read, are making a difference which will end up being a better industry for all sexes. I believe that because stories like this have educated me and my intuition is that it's educated and influenced others too. Which means more change is coming.

jsymolon 9y ago

There are many great places to work. In my 20+ years, i've never ran across that toxic attitude. Maybe it's time to publicly shame those workplaces.

truebosko 9y ago

Don't leave tech -- Leave this trash fire of a company. All the best to you.

itsthecourier 9y ago
> Don't leave tech -- Leave this trash fire of a company. Instructions unclear. left a trash can in fire at the office. -Posted from jail

antgly 9y ago

You almost left tech because a bunch in tech are socially awkward weirdos who don't give a crap about other people. Period. It's not about being a woman... it's that the tech field is full of anti-social shit.

cocklagger 9y ago
The funniest thing is that many of the people on HN are this type.
giarc 9y ago
I don't think you can describe some of the actions as simply by those that are "socially awkward". Her director asked her to move to make room for his big dick. That's inappropriate whether you are introverted or extroverted.
KirinDave 9y ago
Yo I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you've never had a woman and a manager walk up and say "Move over I need room for my big tits." I'm sure those experiences can exist in this world, but data we have paints a picture that these "socially awkward weirdos" aren't so weird and special and snowflake. They're garden variety sexists of the most boring and hurtful sort.
- deleted 9y ago
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- Danihan 9y ago
  I have, back when I worked in restaurants.
  - orbitingpluto 9y ago
    I have also seen that sort of behaviour at the high level as a female president and her most immediate female cronies, Given the owner, she would not have climbed up in the company without acting like that. Whether they were emulating the corresponding male behaviours to get ahead or are just awful human beings is inconsequential, but my vote was for, "Why not both?" You have to challenge these people for your own mental well being. If it doesn't work out for your career prospects, oh well, at least you remain a content and happy human being.

Allvitende 9y ago

This is a reflection of your coworkers not an entire industry.

ebcode 9y ago
Rather, this is a reflection of an entire culture of woman-hating and female disempowerment that has been prevalent since Aeschylus wrote The Oresteia, of which these coworkers at this one small company are but a typical example.

cocklagger 9y ago

So, to recap: OP posts an article on French Slack about sexual harassment. Some team member replies with "don't give a fuck" meme. Team has a performance review in which reviewer makes callous and childish comments about his sexual organs. "Our app is big, like my dick." Are French people really this retarded? OP hasn't quit this toxic workplace yet.

computerex 9y ago
The dick comments are definitely out of place. That's not a professional work environment...
deleted 9y ago
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prashnts 9y ago
I figure from the article that she's signed a contract with them, so maybe she can't quit yet?

pwinnski 9y ago

And one of the comments on the page is simply "Grow up." Which seems like part of the problem. But I don't want to judge someone out of context, so I clicked on their Medium username to see if maybe I'd misunderstood. It turns out every single comment that user has made is on seven different stories they can make negative comments about women and their accomplishments. This nastiness is pervasive, and often carried out by people so blind to their own participation that they deny what they themselves are doing.

sokoloff 9y ago
One account pulled that same move several times on medium and the conclusion is "this nastiness is pervasive" [in tech] rather than "that poster is an asshole"? I seriously doubt the person behind that account denies what they are doing.

nk1tz 9y ago

You should publicly denounce this company, in your article and here on HN. Grab as much evidence of the unacceptable behavior and put it online for all to see.

computerex 9y ago

Provide evidence. If it's so prevalent it shouldn't be hard. We all know about Uber, come up with something original. You are accusing the entire industry as a whole after all from little firms to giants.

wfunction 9y ago
These two articles went around a while ago (Microsoft, Pinterest): [1] https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/18/11262888 https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/18/11262888 [2] https://qz.com/659196 https://qz.com/659196
- MadSax 9y ago
  Given the number of UFO sighting claims, you would think everyone's chance of encountering a silent flying saucer shaped object in their lifetime is near 100%. My point is, everyone sympathizes with stories of abuse/sexism/racism, but the number of articles written about them doesn't prove they happen frequently or even that they happen in the majority of workplaces.
  - rhcom2 9y ago
    Sexism claims can be backed up by facts, courts, admissions of guilt. They're nothing like UFO sightings.
mustacheemperor 9y ago
Just to add to the evidence others are posting, Dave McClure is a fine example and my go-to since people started complaining Uber's scandal wasn't "original enough." [0]https://500hats.com/im-a-creep-i-m-sorry-d2c13e996ea0 https://500hats.com/im-a-creep-i-m-sorry-d2c13e996ea0 [1]https://cherylyeoh.com/2017/07/03/shedding-light-on-the-black-box-of-inappropriateness/ https://cherylyeoh.com/2017/07/03/shedding-light-on-the-blac...
KirinDave 9y ago
Why are Uber and GitHub not sufficient as a basis for plausibility? Because you know about them? That's arbitrary.

ra1n85 9y ago

"Micro aggressions", rape, lives being "destroyed", "emoji-induced tears", and violence undermine the point of the article. Tragically comedic hyperbole. Pro tip: The next time someone offends you, call them on it. Stand up for yourself. We need more people talking and less "retreat and blog".

crsmithdev 9y ago
Thanks for providing yourself as a great example of the problem here.
KirinDave 9y ago
Step 1: immediately introduce straw men to knock down. Step 2: blame the victim of sexual harassment for being there and not finding a way to not be harassed. Step 3: Right after telling them to stand up for themselves, immediately shame them for talking about the experience. It might give them resources to actually follow the advice you patronizingly tossed out in step 2. This playbook is old. It's unacceptable. It's a way to try and shield men from the consequences illegal, unproessional, and immoral actions. It's an attempt to undermine anyone who notices. You're doing something awful. Stop it.
- MadSax 9y ago
  It's interesting how you decry the straw man but then set up your very own in Steps 2 and 3.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    >> Step 1: immediately introduce straw men to knock down. > "Micro aggressions", rape, lives being "destroyed", "emoji-induced tears", and violence > Tragically comedic hyperbole. >> Step 2: blame the victim of sexual harassment for being there and not finding a way to not be harassed. > The next time someone offends you, call them on it. Stand up for yourself >> Step 3: Right after telling them to stand up for themselves, immediately shame them for talking about the experience. It might give them resources to actually follow the advice you patronizingly tossed out in step 2. > We need more people talking and less "retreat and blog" There are no straw men here. Only classic deflect-and-gaslight tactics older than either of us. But hey, you go on misusing the phrase "straw man", champ. Credit to your gender, etc. Stop defending sexism. If your behavior is indistinguishable from sexism save for intent, it is sexism. Period.

jneal 9y ago

I hope you can find a company where you are treated as an equal. I can honestly say I've never worked for a company like you describe, so it sounds more like an issue with the company and not the entire industry as you seem to suggest. As a male, I wouldn't stand for this type of behavior from my colleagues. Personally, I'd be going up the corporate ladder or human resources until I found someone that make this type of behavior cease, and if it didn't, I would be gone. I can't even imagine being on the receiving end of something like that.

deleted 9y ago
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sweetyclem 9y ago
Bonjour JNeal, Thank you for your kind response. I don't even think it's a company wide problem, I'm certain the misogynist director is influencing every one in this department. I think my colleagues will be more careful in the future, and I will definitely go to the director's boss but I prefer to do it in 2 weeks, when my contract is done. Have a great evening!
deleted 9y ago
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howeyc 9y ago

Obviously this is over the line and totally unprofessional conduct by those mentioned in the story. Can anyone come up with a story or things that could be taken as sexist towards a male? I have a hard time knowing if I'm right in that I think I'd be fine with this as I don't take this extremely juvenile crap as seriously or if I'm just really having a hard time being empathetic because I just have never, nor can I fathom, anything rocking my sense of worth so hard. Maybe I need to experience being marginalized due to my sex or race or whatever to be empathetic? I dunno. I'm sure there's more to it that can cause someone to break down like the person who wrote this. I want to understand. Do I need a bunch of women to joke about guys with small dicks are worthless or something? Is that comparable? Should I be extremely offended and be willing to quit over that, like the world is against me because of it? I'm honestly wondering here. Please help me understand. I'm serious. I just don't know what it's like.

cjbprime 9y ago
As your comment wrestles with, you can't know what it's like, because you don't live under a systemic power imbalance. The fact that words aren't going to hurt you as much because they aren't coming from an environment of actual systemic discrimination doesn't mean that the people who are hurt by words under discrimination are wrong or irrational. It just means it's a thing you don't get to experience first-hand and should attempt to have empathy for nonetheless.
deleted 9y ago
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burkaman 9y ago
> I think I'd be fine with this as I don't take this extremely juvenile crap as seriously Do you think her coworkers were only like this in casual conversations and social situations, and treated her as a complete equal professionally? Or do you think their attitudes might have affected how they viewed her work, what she was assigned, her opportunities for advancement, etc. It doesn't matter if you "take it seriously" or not when people who have power over you are doing this. It's not about being offended, it's about being unequal.

deleted 9y ago

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karllager 9y ago

This experience makes me sick. There are very different places, where people are generally polite and professional and even fun. And where a sexist comment would not go unnoticed. Hope your next job will be like that. I once attended a hackathon around some humanitarian cause. Participants in general were nice. However, I joined a team, which had two kind of strong male characters in them. None of them would be able to discuss and think freely. One guy has worked in various startups. Without him telling me more about this, I could just infer how blame-driven his developer jobs were by seeing him interacting with the others. Really scary. The other imagined himself as an activist. So active, that in the end, we did not produce anything at that hackathon and I believe without these two males it would have been much simpler to actually get a discussion going and to have fun. In general, the more educated and diverse people are, the more they are able to think and think independently. The more people are responsible for themselves the more they are responsible for creating a work atmosphere, that is healthy for all participants - because hate and exclusion lessen motivation and there is one thing that need to go out to all businesses and managers and hierarchical elements: You cannot motivate people - you can only demotivate them. And this can happen much faster than one might believe.

bbotond 9y ago
Two "males"... I hate it so much when people who are against stereotyping women so readily stereotype men. Those were two people who happened to be men. Your comment is everything that is wrong with today's "feminist" movement.
- karllager 9y ago
  I could have said "two people", it would have not changed the situation not much, I guess.

volune 9y ago

Wow. No one even attacked you directly, they merely made lewd comments in your presence. I can see how there is a huge disconnect if this is all it takes for someone to want to run back to a life of shelter.

ryandamm 9y ago
I think posting the "We don't give a f--k" video is a pretty direct attack. And even if that specific incident hadn't happened: a climate of gendered or sexually explicit comments is hostile. I'm sorry if you work somewhere that this isn't obvious or explicit. At my company, we're working to maintain a good culture, and none of the behavior described in the article -- none -- would be acceptable. Thankfully we haven't had to deal with that yet. But I'm formulating some new interview questions reading this HN thread....

rdiddly 9y ago

Company sounds like a bunch of clowns. This is one of the things VCs are thinking about when they talk about bringing in "adult supervision."

deleted 9y ago

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DrNuke 9y ago

The girl is right but sociopaths and weirdos will often outnumber her, not only in the coding field. I am afraid her reaction shows she has a long way to go before developing the thick skin she needs to survive and assert herself.

KirinDave 9y ago
Alternatively we could use the beloved principle of meritocracy to point out that none of those people are the kind of geniuses that would offset the cost of a sexual harassment lawsuit and they should all be disciplined and possibly fired for their unprofessional conduct. But sure. Tell her to 'grow up.' Tell her that because there are bad people in the world, it's her responsibility and role to accept and cater to them.

mustacheemperor 9y ago

Everyone begging for this company to be doxxed is no doubt just hoping to evaluate it and begin a "no true scotsman" argument that excludes this behavior from our industry from a whole, and, most importantly, excludes their own team/company from being part of the problem.

pm90 9y ago

I want to ask this question as gently as possible: Is it acceptable or common in French culture/companies to use a phrase such as "Move over I need a place for my big dick"? It sounds so aggressive and hare-brained that I can't really imagine anyone in the US saying that without begging for a sexual harassment case targeted towards them. To be 100% clear: I'm not justifying this behavior at all. My point is that when having a beer with friends, its common to joke around like that. I'm just wondering if in French culture, when going out for drinks, if its common or socially acceptable to make these jokes. From the lady's viewpoint, it seems like its not.

waterlink 9y ago
From a straight-man point of view (me) it is also not acceptable.
- tickthokk 9y ago
  From a manager, while in the workplace, sure. At a bar, drinking beer? I dunno, sounds like they were joking around. If I can't talk about body parts at a bar while drinking beer, I'm not sure where you can.
  - waterlink 9y ago
    Why would I want to talk about these parts in the bar? Or why would I want to hear about them from someone else? I can't talk about these parts at the bar. And I'll feel very uncomfortable and will have to ask that person in the group to stop if they were to do that. I hold a belief that one needs to maintain professional (or at least semi-professional) conduct in the bar too. Otherwise, it is just too immature.
  - corobo 9y ago
    At a bar drinking my default reaction would probably be to barely scoot across the bench and say "that should give you plenty of room" In a workplace environment though it's definitely be a weird comment to hear

zapt02 9y ago

Every time I see a story like this, I am honestly wondering where all these people are working, as I have never encountered anyone near these levels of sexism in many years of working in the tech industry (albeit in Sweden). What rubs me the wrong way though is when people project experiences like these onto their own experiences of lesser magnitude. For example, a while back a colleague asked me for a sit-down and explained that she was frustrated that i had "mansplained" her in a meeting. She was fuming. At worst, I might have interrupted her at one point or two inadvertently because there was a heated discussion on a technical topic. I don't want to rob her of these feelings but I feel like overall we're talking about some actual sexist idiots and then have a much larger layer of people who are just looking to be mad about something.

gorkonsine 9y ago
>I have never encountered anyone near these levels of sexism in many years of working in the tech industry (albeit in Sweden). Nor have I, albeit in the US (even in the parts that are Trump-land). You're European, so maybe you know more about French culture than me: is this something that's endemic to French culture perhaps? Over here in the US, I would be shocked to hear about this crap in any place other than one run by a bunch of 25-year-old frat bros.
- zapt02 9y ago
  This type of thing exists, there's even a saying for it in swedish - "grabbig stämning" (loosely translated: "frat-house feeling"). But the last time I remember someone behaving like this was when I was just starting university, at around 19-20 yo, and even then that was just stuff between guys, never to a girl. We are very conscious of how we talk in sweden, and nobody would drop a comment vaguely similar to the ones mentioned above, unless they really hate their job and want to get fired.
- gorkonsine 9y ago
  After all the massive down-voting I'm getting now, and all the pro-dick-joke comments, I've changed my opinion. Apparently American tech workers (esp. Silicon Valley ones, since they dominate the readership here) really are a bunch of sexist pigs. TIL. I didn't realize I was hanging out with such a bunch of low-lifes. Honestly, between the frat-boy behavior of techies, and the open-plan offices, I really wish I had gone into the legal field instead. My girlfriend in legal has a wonderful (and quiet) office, and never has any problem with misogyny or blatantly crude and unprofessional behavior at work. The tech industry has really turned into garbage in the past couple of decades.

Steeeve 9y ago

I'm a guy, and I would quit if that's the kind of behavior I could expect out of my colleagues on a regular basis. I've worked in the industry for a long time, and I have never seen anything like that. It seems like a very bad move to alienate 50% of the potential workforce.

samuell 9y ago

Why is this flagged?

sokoloff 9y ago

> Ok, explain me how gender neutral "We don't give a fuck" is sexist Clémentine shared an article on her team Slack about "I found an article on why so many women leave engineering, and wanted to share it with my colleagues." One of her colleagues replied on the channel with a video saying "We don't give a fuck" The combination of those two things is sexist by any possible interpretation I can think of.

tbrownaw 9y ago
Things that probably express similar sentiment, but with different language: * "Not my circus, not my monkeys." * "How do things in those other places concern *us*?" * "People suck, news at 11." * "You think we haven't been hearing this every day already?" * "Thanks, but we already have more than enough things to be outraged about." * "That doesn't look actionable." * "We're here to do work, not to agitate for social change." Does phrasing it in any of those ways still look "sexist by any possible interpretation I can think of"?
- sokoloff 9y ago
  No. Some of those are borderline supportive (#3, #4). The others are at least slanted towards "[maybe] it's a problem, but not one that we're going to fix". They all convey much more "we heard what you said" than "We don't give a fuck" does. Just MHO.
- calibration263 9y ago
  A lot of these I don't think are different phrasings, they're different in meaning as well. A closer rephrasing with similar sentiment is: "No one cares" All the phrasing you provided are combinations of: 1) not applicable to me/us 2) we can't do anything about it For anyone struggling with empathy, imagine you're feeling frustrated with something, you share with your coworkers, one replies publicly "no one cares" and everyone else laughs. Then the next day the thing that was frustrating you happens a number of times and you can't say anything because it's clear that everyone doesn't care.

spyhi 9y ago

This reminds me of an extremely eloquent comment I saw over on Reddit a while ago about how men being assholes to each other is actually a form of male bonding, and there is a delicate nuance to our rough-edged camaraderie. [1] I was raised in a gentle household by a nerd and a feminist, so when I joined the Army as an infantryman, I absolutely had to learn how this worked and can absolutely attest that it's a real thing. Given the later apologies, it sounds like it's possible the office was bro-ing it up with her and may have even thought they were welcoming her into the tribe, so to speak. (Of course, they could have all just been misogynist assholes, too...sad how there can be little difference) Thing is, most women absolutely DO NOT respond well to that kind of male bonding. And, honestly, they probably shouldn't--I think this "emotional sonar" is a maladjusted response to men being told they can't express their feelings. Given this, we probably shouldn't be exposing women to that kind of environment either. I guess this kind of underscores why you need women in the workplace. It's too easy for an all-male space to fall into this kind of emotional language and interaction framework, which is "hostile but comprehensible" to those in the culture, but completely alien to those who aren't--women and foreigners alike. At the very least, we (meaning everyone, not just men) should try to be aware that not everyone bonds the same, and bonding activities for some people and genders may be anti-bonding and hostile to others. I want to make clear, I'm not trying to justify what happened, but I feel like often these articles are kind of one-sided, which can make it difficult to diagnose what's going on. The problem with saying "don't be misogynist" is I suspect few people identify as one but, on the other hand, we can identify our baggage and try to examine critically how it affects others. Either way, sorry OP had to experience that, whether mismatched bonding attempts or actual hostility and misogyny. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/5dpezd/girls_what_things_guys_like_to_do_to_each_other/da6fi9l/?context=3&st=ivp2r7tf&sh=16e79aa2 https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/5dpezd/girls_what...

tickthokk 9y ago
I think a good example is the "Our app is huge, like my dick." line. As a guy, this line was pretty funny, and I could see myself saying it (on an all male team). I might not say it in front of female coworkers though, but if I worked closely with one I may say it within earshot without thinking about it. It certainly wasn't an attack on the poster. Are we just not allowed to talk about genitalia? I guess as a baseline rule it's inappropriate, sure, but he's not being suggestive or soliciting. As described, it's obviously a joke. Not sure where the offense is here other than he said "dick" in the workplace within earshot of someone who doesn't want to hear that. I'll finish by saying that the rest of it was certainly uncalled for, but this one instance doesn't really stand on it's own as offensive.

labster 9y ago

Oh look, a few hackernews flagged this article to keep women in their place. Stay classy. Anyway, if I saw what OP saw at her company, I would quit. And I identify as male. And I think we owe it to women to deny sexist companies access to hiring the 90% of programmers who aren't jerks. Well, 80%.

KirinDave 9y ago

It's a terrible example of how these stories are suppressed when Hacker News allows them to be flagged off. This story is relevant to tech, compelling and topical. It was receiving upvotes that put it on the front page. But it got flagged to oblivion in under an hour. Edit: Update, either enough people vouched on an invisible article (via twitter?) to unflag, or the mods intervened. We'll see.

striking 9y ago
Remember, if you find an article worthy of discussion being flagged or otherwise suppressed, email the mods. They'll take care of it.

bpyne 9y ago

The team described may exhibit an extreme behavior. But, I think it's fair to say that women experience "death by a thousand cuts" in male-dominated fields, not just Tech. I also think that young men learn the lesson of disregarding women early. I started coaching co-ed youth basketball recently. At ages 10-12, boys are already disregarding their female teammates as potential contributors. The boys aren't overtly hostile. They just don't even think about passing to the girls. They don't trust the girls to play good defense, so the boys try to cover too much floor, ironically allowing more points to be scored against us. I'm steadily working with them on trust and inclusiveness. But, it amazes me that they're so young and already need to unlearn negative behaviors.

holydude 9y ago

I understand your stand. But it is not about industry or men but people in general. I do not care about being in a professional environment where my she-boss adresses me by my surname but never forgets to mention how expensive we are. Yeah no sexist jokes but you still feel like shit. And (now generalizing a lot) women are control freaks. Also when in power they totally refuse the concept of criticism. You just cant really mention who/what is wrong. None is ever accountable for anything. Sigh.

vlodiag 9y ago

Just quit and find SJW friendly company (will be hard though as complaining and victim complex rarely makes money). You are clearly a wrong fit there. To get upset by such a comment as "Our app is big just like my dick" needs some special "special snowflake". Women are very valuable employees just like man only and only if they provide value and make money to the employer. The more the better. That's the only thing that matters and that's when your opinions matters to your employer. Otherwise you are just a toxic asset bitching about non issues and employer is probably just better off if he lets you go.

sctb 9y ago
There's no place for vicious comments like this on Hacker News, so we've banned the account.
- vlodiag 9y ago
  vicious?

adamc 9y ago

Seems like her colleagues have the maturity of 15-year-olds.

omot 9y ago

Why was this flagged?!

Rjevski 9y ago

In this case it looks more like your team/company is shit. Even as a male something like "I need room for my big dick" would've made me very uncomfortable in a professional setting.

negativ0 9y ago

from the article looks like everything started just after the author posted a link on the slack channel. maybe just avoid posting this articles on slack. you are supposed to work not to rise a fire. if you had problem about sexism in the company you should leave/complain and not trying to fix something chitchatting on slack.

gorkonsine 9y ago

Not exactly. Suppose you're living in Saudi Arabia as a woman, and men there are treating you very poorly and in a sexist manner. Should you conclude that "men have a big problem with sexism"? No. The correct conclusion is that "men in Saudi Arabia have a big problem with sexism". Go to someplace like Norway and you're probably not going to see the same dynamic. The same is likely true here: she's in France. I've never worked in the tech industry in France. However, I've worked in a bunch of different companies, in different industries, as a software engineer here in the US, and on both coasts too. I've never seen behavior like this. So IMO, the conclusion should be "the tech industry in France is misogynistic". The answer for her, therefore, IMO is to get the hell out of France.

dang 9y ago
> The answer for her, therefore, IMO is to get the hell out of France Regional and cultural differences are real, and have a much larger influence on Hacker News than is commonly realized. But bringing that up as you did in this thread, by pouring national flamebait into a gender flamewar, is definitely not using HN as intended. Moreover we've warned you repeatedly and asked you to fix this and you haven't. Therefore I've banned you again. If you genuinely want to use HN as intended you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com, but would you please stop creating accounts to break HN's rules with? We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14868502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14868502 and marked it off-topic.

swframe2 9y ago

Slightly off topic but ... Women in tech please do this ... Focus on a different and more important problem. Find a Director/VP level employee to be your mentor. Basically, I feel, to fix these issues we need more leadership diversity. Focus on getting more power.

artorias 9y ago

>8 males How does she know what her co-workers identify as? This woman is sexist, homophobic, and probably a deeply rooted misogynist.

jriot 9y ago

I have often wondered if it is sexism or women getting used to how men treat each other. Currently, I am a data scientist, but prior to that I was an air traffic controller (ATC). ATC training was brutal. You come in at 0530 for work/training, and you better be ready for a simulator first thing in the morning. Make a mistake get ready to be berated in front of everyone, and be scheduled to work the weekend. If you did well, you got to control real planes that day and you better perform exceptional while answering your trainers questions or forget controlling tomorrow. Questions would include, what is the separation between a heavy and small on final inside the approach gate? What is the radial and DME for xxxx point? What ABQ center's frequency? We treated everyone the same - men and women. Women would often cry, yet they understood they weren't being treated differently from their male counterparts as every trainee was treated as s*. We had a 20% success rate with roughly 2 years of training. When you became a certified controller, it was a big deal and for males, every controller in the facility would punch the metal ATC badge into your chest the day of your final rating- it was a rite of passage. Men treat each other differently and test each other differently, women are just learning this it seems.

greglindahl 9y ago
I wonder what % of the people who "failed" would have made excellent air traffic controllers?
- jriot 9y ago
  None of them would have. It is a stressful job. We created simulated stressful environment and they couldn't handle it. We weren't going to spare their feelings and risk other people's lives.
  - TheLilHipster 9y ago
    That point-of-view is so important IMO. Because of the job environment, as an employee you UNDERSTAND the CONTEXT and INTENT behind the working conditions. This logic applies to life and all social interactions. Assume innocence, positivity and optimism in the INTENT behind the words of strangers - until they give you a reason to think otherwise. To anyone who disagrees: If you do not subscribe to this ideal, then what are you advocating as an alternative? Everyone be extremely PC and hyper-aware of everything they say and the indefinite amount of ways their words can be interpreted? it makes just no sense. Crying foul, fighting to get what you "want" in the moment, rather then what is true and just - I'm just tired of it all, burnt out by the lack of rationality in these sorts of discussions.

cosmic_ape 9y ago

That's a terrible team, hopefully non representative. I haven't ever seen a work environment that would be even close to producing something like this. However, looking at the article itself, there is some irony in using a picture of a woman in a bra, tousled hair, as a title picture for an article on sexism. Is this how the author comes to work? Is this how a woman programmer should be pictured? Its also not the first time these type of articles, with these type of pictures appear, even here on HN.

_sp 9y ago
The image seems to be a representation of the oppression women in tech face. I guess the model is wearing that because she's in water. Only the jeans look out of place IMO, not the swim appropriate top.

qb45 9y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html What to Submit On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. I too normally dislike things disappearing from the front page in 5 minutes but I made an exception for this submission and flagged it because such stories are dime in a dozen and this one brings zero new information, solves nothing and mainly just perpetuates hostility.

KirinDave 9y ago
So you're saying you flagged this despite the fact that it is in not off-topic. Because you dislike the narrative it establishes?
- qb45 9y ago
  Do I need to repeat? I flagged it because such stories are dime in a dozen and this one brings zero new information¹, solves nothing² and mainly just perpetuates hostility³. 1. See the "off-topic" paragraph quoted above why it's relevant. And, BTW, this rule makes sense - when it comes to politics, usually both sides have already heard all arguments and if they still remain in disagreement, repetition is unlikely to bring anything but flamewar. 2. See paragraph above. 3. Which in itself might be a good reason, although I'm admittedly stretching it here because I selfishly refuse to take responsibility for other people's emotions and if I found this story interesting, I would have probably upvoted it. I upvoted that one for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14692038 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14692038 because I found TFA informative and there is nothing you can do about it. > Because you dislike the narrative it establishes? Absolutely, it's harmful because words like "hostile", "sexism", "harassment", etc suggest malicious intent which usually just isn't there. It antagonizes men who have no intention of harming women and scares women in situations when no harm was actually meant. It deprives women of ability to effectively complain by making them question whether it makes sense to bring it up with the offender at all. And even when they decide to talk about it, it pre-trains them to paint it as oppression which predictably gets reactions ranging from "WTF" to "we don't give a fuck, your paranoia is your problem".

revmoo 9y ago

None of those things are sexist, they're just inappropriate.

justadeveloper2 9y ago

I wanted to offer some thoughts to the author of this piece. I don't wish to belittle you or make light of your situation. But I do want to point out a few things. Foremost, you need to understand that free expression is not illegal and does not necessarily fall under sexual harassment law, most of which deal only with harassment by those in positions of authority against their direct reports. Companies have all kinds of sexual harassment policies they have cooked up but those policies are for protecting the company against lawsuits, not you. There is no legal recourse and probably no HR recourse, either. Annoying cads exist everywhere. How you deal with them is what matters and it doesn't just happen to women and minorities, as much as our culture of identity politics and victimhood would lead us to believe. I'm a white guy (oh so privileged) and have had plenty of horrifying incidents with people whom I have worked with, some to the point where I quit the job I had just to be free from my antagonists, which is exactly what they wanted. What I am trying to tell you is that there are sociopaths and people with Borderline Personality Disorder and they are everywhere in corporate America and waiting for their next victim to walk by. There is no avoiding all of them. All you can do is learn to deal with them in such a way that it does not tear you down psychologically--and yes, sometimes that means getting away from your abuser. I once had a co-worker who had it out for me for no particular reason other than he is an out-and-out asshole seeking to protect his comfy, do-nothing job that my software would eventually have automated out of existence. He would seed distrust and fear about my project behind my back to all the major stakeholders, every meeting I was in with him was nothing but a knife-fight with me defending my team of developers from outrageous allegations, he used every sneaky trick in the book to attack my credibility without once taking a direct, personal jab at me. Despite that, I was completely undermined and ineffective in my role. I talked to my manager, to HR, none of them did a damn thing about this guy. He was absolute poison to that company...crickets. So I know a thing or two about these kinds of issues having been harassed for months on end albeit not in a sexual manner. In another case, there was a VMS administrator at a major healthcare company who didn't want to see his comfy VMS admin job end by my team replacing the crappy, way out of date, COBOL-based shit system that barely worked. He won--I gave up and left that place for greener pastures and that company is still stupidly running that piece of crap system at the cost of millions of dollars and it was so bad that it cost them all their profits in a major line of business. All because of one intractable personality and really nothing else.

BrandoElFollito 9y ago

This particular environment is obviously insane. The people are probably mentally instable with a huge complex. This said, I would hate to have in my team coders who instead of coding post stuff about women persecuted in tech, men persecuted in football, whites persecuted in driving and blacks persecuted in sudoku. Or whatever. When I work I see professionals. On s'en bat les couilles that they are men or women.

planck01 9y ago

I don't see any sexism in this story. Some people just are rude and there are assholes everywhere. What the author describes is a group dynamic going sour and alpha behavior. Everone, male or female, will experience this at some point in their life. That sucks, but it will never change as it is part of the human condition. Also, being a woman doesn't mean you are entitled to emotionel gentler treatment.

borplk 9y ago

I have not read the post. I just want to say whatever "ism" is involved you can find it in any industry you wish. It's a person thing not an industry thing. Have you seen any discussions about "sexism in the coal mining industry"? Somehow in tech people attribute each and every personal experience and anecdote to the industry and as far as I can see it's unique to tech. When a female employee has her ass grabbed in your average boring accounting firm it doesn't make headlines. But if it happens in a tech startup office in SV suddenly it's treated like a crisis in the entire industry. I don't get it.

SoCool 9y ago

Seriously..someone needs to get fired to use such profanity over slack channel in an office environment