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I am deriding the sort of discourse that topics like this usually produce, not the people making the arguments. It's certainly possible that the public debate
by ineptech 9y ago
I am deriding the sort of discourse that topics like this usually produce, not the people making the arguments. It's certainly possible that the public debate over kids' football will largely be apolitical and civil and productive, such things do happen, but I'm predicting that it won't be.
- Stratoscope 9y agoWhat you're actually doing is creating the kind of discourse you claim to be deriding.
- jpttsn 9y agoHow? Does nationwide political sentiment turn on HN comments?
- heygrady 9y agoPrescribing someone to a "tribe" based on some kind of arbitrary test is divisive. Examples: - People with red hats on are my friends - People that like chocolate ice cream are idiots - People who let their children play football are Trump voters
- jpttsn 9y agoPretty sure we're talking past one another here. Thought experiment: if I describe a topic in the forest, and nobody is there to hear it, am I still being divisive?
- heygrady 9y agoOne wonders why you would say divisive things aloud in an otherwise lonely forest. Saying something hurtful, offensive, divisive, unnecessary... is problematic regardless of the size of the audience. You can see that the original "divisive" comment [1] on this thread sparked a large response. It's true that a HackerNews thread has a lower global-political impact than, say, a presidential tweet or a Supreme Court ruling. But that shouldn't prevent anyone from thinking through their HN comments. Words matter. The comment we're both responding to [1] was unnecessarily divisive -- which partially obscured the commenter's otherwise good points (that team-thinking can obscure rational thinking). And that's particularly important on a website like HackerNews. Original divisive comment: "[Has football joined the list of] values that separate members of the Red Tribe from the Blue Tribe? Football is a red-state pastime." [1] The comment you responded to: "You're creating [divisive] discourse [by posing divisive questions]." [2] I think your response, pointing out that a comment on HN usually won't "create" a nationally divisive discourse [3], is missing the point. If you look at the rest of the thread you can see that it created a divisive debate within HackerNews. I think the point you're missing is that divisive language creates divisions wherever it is used and it's worthwhile to point that out -- even if you think you're only talking to yourself. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867048 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867414 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867450
- carapace 9y agoI once accidentally started an argument at a party about whether to let the toilet paper hang over the front of the roll or the back by mentioning how funny it was that people would argue over something so trivial. (It's extra-funny because all right-thinking people know that it's obviously better to have it hang over the front of the roll. Sheesh!)
- jpttsn 9y agoIt's tenacious to paraphrase the comment thread above you like that. I disagree with your characterization of the argument. But maybe you're making the subtle point that "it matters if HN comments abuse quotation marks."
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- travisjungroth 9y agoI appreciate your comment. There's a difference between predicting people will be divisive and actually being divisive yourself.
- sangnoir 9y ago> I am deriding the sort of discourse that topics like this usually produce You have become what you hate - you are the one who introduced the subject. Its like "Has anyone compared $TOPIC to Nazis yet? This subject has a tendency to be Godwinned".
- ineptech 9y agoI made a falsifiable prediction about reality. If I'd written an essay on Medium that ostensibly argued for one side's view, but which did so in a condescending and divisive manner more likely to show what a clever guy I am than to actually persuade anyone on the other side, then I would've become what I hate.
- Stratoscope 9y agoBut you did take one side's view in a condescending and divisive manner. The side you took is the one that divides people into a Red Tribe and a Blue Tribe, ascribes stereotypical views to each, and makes lists of attributes to categorize people into one of these two tribes. People are quite a bit more complex than that, and these kinds of arbitrary binary divisions get in the way of finding common ground.
- marchenko 9y agoIt's a bit of a strange prediction. If we take boxing as a model of a formerly massively-popular sport now considered excessively dangerous, we can observe that minority (Latino and African-American) participation remains high. These demographics are generally not considered part of the Red Tribe coalition. If football follows the same trend, it will be a weak tribal correlate at best.
- kelnos 9y agoNot trying to argue, but just curious: was boxing as big as football is now in the US? I'm not much into sports in general, and I wasn't around when boxing was big (or just completely missed it), so I'm lacking context.