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Has "whether you let your kids play football" joined the long, long list of boolean values that separate members of the Red Tribe from the Blue Tribe? If not,

Has "whether you let your kids play football" joined the long, long list of boolean values that separate members of the Red Tribe from the Blue Tribe? If not, I think it's inevitable that it will. Someone will try to get their school to close its football program, someone else will complain that the health dangers are exaggerated by the liberal media because football is a red-state passtime, and pretty soon it'll be "Why do you hate America and apple pie" vs "Why do you want children to suffer and die".

dv_dt 9y ago
I feel that this comment is unnecessarily divisive and condescending. In general, I think people care about their kids, and will have different levels of risk sensitivity. http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/popwarner/pop-warner-youth-football-participation-drops-nfl-concussion-crisis-seen-causal-factor http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/popwarner/pop-warn...
- ineptech 9y ago
  I am deriding the sort of discourse that topics like this usually produce, not the people making the arguments. It's certainly possible that the public debate over kids' football will largely be apolitical and civil and productive, such things do happen, but I'm predicting that it won't be.
  - Stratoscope 9y ago
    What you're actually doing is creating the kind of discourse you claim to be deriding.
    - jpttsn 9y ago
      How? Does nationwide political sentiment turn on HN comments?
      - heygrady 9y ago
        Prescribing someone to a "tribe" based on some kind of arbitrary test is divisive. Examples: - People with red hats on are my friends - People that like chocolate ice cream are idiots - People who let their children play football are Trump voters
        jpttsn 9y ago
        Pretty sure we're talking past one another here. Thought experiment: if I describe a topic in the forest, and nobody is there to hear it, am I still being divisive?
        heygrady 9y ago
        One wonders why you would say divisive things aloud in an otherwise lonely forest. Saying something hurtful, offensive, divisive, unnecessary... is problematic regardless of the size of the audience. You can see that the original "divisive" comment [1] on this thread sparked a large response. It's true that a HackerNews thread has a lower global-political impact than, say, a presidential tweet or a Supreme Court ruling. But that shouldn't prevent anyone from thinking through their HN comments. Words matter. The comment we're both responding to [1] was unnecessarily divisive -- which partially obscured the commenter's otherwise good points (that team-thinking can obscure rational thinking). And that's particularly important on a website like HackerNews. Original divisive comment: "[Has football joined the list of] values that separate members of the Red Tribe from the Blue Tribe? Football is a red-state pastime." [1] The comment you responded to: "You're creating [divisive] discourse [by posing divisive questions]." [2] I think your response, pointing out that a comment on HN usually won't "create" a nationally divisive discourse [3], is missing the point. If you look at the rest of the thread you can see that it created a divisive debate within HackerNews. I think the point you're missing is that divisive language creates divisions wherever it is used and it's worthwhile to point that out -- even if you think you're only talking to yourself. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867048 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867414 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867450
  - travisjungroth 9y ago
    I appreciate your comment. There's a difference between predicting people will be divisive and actually being divisive yourself.
  - sangnoir 9y ago
    > I am deriding the sort of discourse that topics like this usually produce You have become what you hate - you are the one who introduced the subject. Its like "Has anyone compared $TOPIC to Nazis yet? This subject has a tendency to be Godwinned".
    - ineptech 9y ago
      I made a falsifiable prediction about reality. If I'd written an essay on Medium that ostensibly argued for one side's view, but which did so in a condescending and divisive manner more likely to show what a clever guy I am than to actually persuade anyone on the other side, then I would've become what I hate.
      - Stratoscope 9y ago
        But you did take one side's view in a condescending and divisive manner. The side you took is the one that divides people into a Red Tribe and a Blue Tribe, ascribes stereotypical views to each, and makes lists of attributes to categorize people into one of these two tribes. People are quite a bit more complex than that, and these kinds of arbitrary binary divisions get in the way of finding common ground.
        marchenko 9y ago
        It's a bit of a strange prediction. If we take boxing as a model of a formerly massively-popular sport now considered excessively dangerous, we can observe that minority (Latino and African-American) participation remains high. These demographics are generally not considered part of the Red Tribe coalition. If football follows the same trend, it will be a weak tribal correlate at best.
        kelnos 9y ago
        Not trying to argue, but just curious: was boxing as big as football is now in the US? I'm not much into sports in general, and I wasn't around when boxing was big (or just completely missed it), so I'm lacking context.
schnable 9y ago
Football is hardly part of the culture wars.
- tomjen3 9y ago
  Computer games, sci-fi and atheism has/is part of the culture wars (at least on the internets).
- NotSammyHagar 9y ago
  Not today; but I think it will start to happen. Maybe it will be generational too. I love football but it's getting harder to justify the damage it does to the people doing it.
- fullshark 9y ago
  Are you familiar with Colin Kaepernick?
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  My recollection is the book Friday Night Lights lays out the racism and classism at the core of high school football and that's just in Texas and James Michener brought up these sorts of issues of societal opportunity cost/health cost/monetary benefit of the worship of football/basketball (from childhood to the 99% that don't make in pro or even college sports) in "Sports in America" decades ago.
- mmjaa 9y ago
  Of course it is. There is no reason for these antics, if not for the sake of culture.
learc83 9y ago
There's already plenty of red state soccer moms that refuse to let their kids play football.
- dexterdog 9y ago
  Which has worse concussion problems.
  - fullshark 9y ago
    Soccer has worse concussion problems? I've not heard that. What's the source?
    - mgkimsal 9y ago
      using your head to hit the ball, and/or getting kicked in the head. ;) FWIW, though, I've not heard that point either.
      - heygrady 9y ago
        The possibility of concussions is present in [nearly?] every sport. Typically, head injuries are not a core part of gameplay. In the case of soccer, there have been concerted efforts to remove "heading" from practice and from games. Football is being targeted because minor/severe concussions are commonplace and result from a core aspect of the game.
        mgkimsal 9y ago
        > The possibility of concussions is present in [nearly?] every sport Tennis, golf, swimming, weightlifting, etc - probably have a pretty low incidence of concussion. Stuff with teams and fast movement are probably most suspect; hockey and football would intuitively seem like the worst offenders.
    - trowawee 9y ago
      It's not true. They're both bad, but football has higher rates of concussion. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2140075/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2140075/
pavel_lishin 9y ago
Do kids face the same risk factors as professional NFL players? Someone who plays in high school isn't necessarily going to play football for their entire life; do four years of football from ages 14-18 significantly increase risk?
- joshuagrgt 9y ago
  The NYTimes article said that they tested over 200 brains, half were college or high school players only. 87% came back with CTE. One would hope that it is untenable for institutions of higher learning to profit off of giving their students long term brain damage.
  - sulam 9y ago
    Specifically the percentage breakdown was 99% NFL players, 26% of high school players. It is a significant risk in high school, but clearly there is either a cumulative effect (very likely) and/or as you graduate to more competitive levels of the sport the character changes sufficiently to be more of a risk (also very likely). I was raised in Texas and was more the thin runner body than the football build, so I never played, though lots of people do play high school football there. It's interesting imagining that 1/4 of them could be walking around with CTE. Of course, keep in mind the study is biased by the fact that these brains were specifically donated for evaluation for CTE. It seems probable that CTE findings would be lower in the general population.
  - ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
    That study was a bit misleading in that they only tested brains that were suspected of having CTE in the first place.
    - jdelaney 9y ago
      Dr. McKee, the study's author, acknowledged that and addressed it: > But 110 positives remain significant scientific evidence of an N.F.L. player’s risk of developing C.T.E., which can be diagnosed only after death. About 1,300 former players have died since the B.U. group began examining brains. So even if every one of the other 1,200 players had tested negative — which even the heartiest skeptics would agree could not possibly be the case — the minimum C.T.E. prevalence would be close to 9 percent, vastly higher than in the general population.
xxpor 9y ago
It already has been for 20+ years. Look at the HS football stadiums in TX, vs the amount parents will spend on travel soccer in NJ.
tomjen3 9y ago
I do hear complaints about ESPN being too political (but left leaning) and there was something about one playing not standing for the national anthem. So it seems that right now it is weakly associated with blue tribe. Of course as Grey Tribe I can't do anything but slowly shake my head at these college teams.
Mizza 9y ago
As with a lot of these things, we can look at western Europe as a historical example. Norway banned professional boxing over thirty five years ago for this reason, and it only returned very recently when a more conservative PM took power, and it happened amid plenty of controversy: https://www.thelocal.no/20161004/how-a-boxing-match-turned-into-a-political-fight-for-norways-pm https://www.thelocal.no/20161004/how-a-boxing-match-turned-i...
ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
I played football in up through High School, and I'd definitely say I would be a different person today if I hadn't gone through it. The camaraderie amongst the team is unique amongst every experience I've had since. Plus working through something so challenging definitely provides a great level of satisfaction. I like who I am today, even if I might have a higher risk for any symptoms, and I believe football played a key part in my development.
- heygrady 9y ago
  Feeling camaraderie is not exclusive to football. I felt that same thing being in the marching band and playing soccer. It is a good thing for young people to belong to a team and work together to achieve a common goal. Because it's possible to experience the benefits of camaraderie without the risks of brain damage, it's sensible to question if football is too dangerous for children.
  - ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
    I made a response answering this over here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867607 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867607 Basically, Football works you harder physically (strength), which makes the camaraderie that much stronger (you all overcame the same adversity).
    - heygrady 9y ago
      Your core argument that football builds stronger camaraderie [than other sports or team-like activities] is unsupportable. There is no reason to believe that football is the key ingredient to lasting feelings of camaraderie. What if we just put high school students through a marines-style boot camp? Also, everyone from the marching band still remembers marching through Disney World in 100+ degree heat in full marching uniforms. It was tough and it was a memorable bond we all shared.
    - root_axis 9y ago
      Physicality is just one aspect of teamwork and camaraderie. Ever played in a (good) band? The levels of shared precision and intimacy required to synchronize on complex pieces of music for hours is difficult to put into words and certainly not to be taken lightly as far as camaraderie goes, you have to rely on the competence of your bandmates on a level that is relatively uncommon compared to most sports.
heygrady 9y ago
Maybe it's too far to prescribe "red v. blue" to this issue but it is indeed divisive. High school football has been controversial for many years because of safety concerns [1]. There is some anecdotal evidence that soccer is more popular in blue states [2]. For years, the NFL and its supporters claimed that concussion concerns were greatly overstated [3]. Also anecdotally, I had a Lyft driver who was also a high school football coach who was well versed in how many concussions occur in soccer. He wanted to tell me that football is as safe/dangerous as any other sport. That type of denialism--believing that mounting evidence can be safely ignored--is found in other "red" issues such as climate change, coal jobs, and Russia-gate. [1] High schools are closing football programs. https://www.si.com/mmqb/2015/11/23/high-schools-dropping-and-adding-football-safety-concerns https://www.si.com/mmqb/2015/11/23/high-schools-dropping-and... [2] Soccer is possibly a blue state thing. http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jul/10/peter-beinart/soccer-blue-state-game/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jul/10/... [3] NFL doctors downplayed the dangers. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/18/nfl-doctor-says-cte-is-being-over-exaggerated/ http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/18/nfl-doctor-s...
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Has "whether you let your kids play football" joined the long, long list of boolean values that separate members of the Red Tribe from the Blue Tribe? To the extent that such a list can be said to exist (some of them are Boolean values, but if it's a long list, it's only long because you are including lots of things that individually loosely correlate with tribal membership rather than separate it), attitudes towards kids playing football have been on it for decades. (It also correlates with race, welath, and other socio-economic factors in a way which aren't what you'd expect if you thought it was simply a matter of left/right political tribal identity.)
mcgrath_sh 9y ago
Depends on where you are from. In super blue Pittsburgh, not a chance on earth. Football will have to be nationally legisated against in order for its popularity to fall in Western PA. I am sure there are other, similar pockets in the country.
- brandonmenc 9y ago
  I'm originally from Western PA. It's not really "super blue" - at this point, it's pretty much just Republicans who also like unions.
  - mcgrath_sh 9y ago
    When Pittsburgh's mayor is no longer elected in the Democratic primaries, I will be inclined to agree with you. Pittsburgh proper is still blue. There are red parts in Allegheny County, but that went blue last November too.
pnathan 9y ago
Hard for me to say, as I live in Seattle, but American football love is definitely non-partisan here. But certain sports carry too high a risk for me to support my child getting into them before 16ish. They must have a glimmering of a perspective on what life means before choosing to engage in activities that are significantly likely to permanently damage themselves for life. Particularly for football, there are brain effects. Implication here: for boys, football is off the table. For girls, competitive gymnastics. There are likely other sports that could be found as way too high permanent risk. For perspective on how I'm choosing: soccer is also risky and carries CTE risk, but less so than football. If boy wants to do skiing, running, or mountain biking, that is fine; crossfit, not so much (too aggressive). A certain amount of physical damage is far more acceptable than neurological damage. Things happen though; a friend of mine had his very young daughter fall into a pool and drown a few years after being preemie. That's this life on earth, sorrow and joy. I will give as much responsibility as I can, but the parent's responsibility to is to shape and limit around the ability of the child to react and foresee. Permitting choosing sports which have lifelong damage likelihood, when they are too young to understand the consequences, seems to be poor choice on my part.
- LeifCarrotson 9y ago
  > skiing, running, or mountain biking, that is fine Perhaps it's not a red or blue split, but those sports you listed are definitely on one side of a major class divide. Basketball and football are moving towards the other. And while I understand that a competition between some farm hicks and big-city boys can bring two groups together, access to sports like skiing is fairly exclusive.
  - wbl 9y ago
    In the West yes. In the East a lot of small slopes are pretty accessible and cheap. New York even has a state run one not too far from NYC.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
      And to add my $.02, it was my blue-collar carpenter friend who introduced me to snowboarding when I lived in Connecticut.
Consultant32452 9y ago
Interesting anecdote from Chomsky on football and how it's a way of building jingoist fanatacism. Training young people to cheer for my team is preparing people to submit irrationally to power. As long as my political party wins, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA5jOdPiZWI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA5jOdPiZWI
- groby_b 9y ago
  Not to put too fine a point on it - Chomsky will find a way to illustrate how having beans for lunch will build jingoistic fascism. Yes, submitting irrationally to power is bad, and so is purely tribal thinking. But as it turns out, human beings are a bit more complex, and many are fine maintaining critical thinking skills while simultaneously having a sports team they identify with.
chrismealy 9y ago
All those African-Americans playing in the NFL, you think they're Republicans?
carapace 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcastaball https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcastaball South Park did it.

dv_dt 9y ago

I feel that this comment is unnecessarily divisive and condescending. In general, I think people care about their kids, and will have different levels of risk sensitivity. http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/popwarner/pop-warner-youth-football-participation-drops-nfl-concussion-crisis-seen-causal-factor http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/popwarner/pop-warn...

ineptech 9y ago
I am deriding the sort of discourse that topics like this usually produce, not the people making the arguments. It's certainly possible that the public debate over kids' football will largely be apolitical and civil and productive, such things do happen, but I'm predicting that it won't be.
- Stratoscope 9y ago
  What you're actually doing is creating the kind of discourse you claim to be deriding.
  - jpttsn 9y ago
    How? Does nationwide political sentiment turn on HN comments?
    - heygrady 9y ago
      Prescribing someone to a "tribe" based on some kind of arbitrary test is divisive. Examples: - People with red hats on are my friends - People that like chocolate ice cream are idiots - People who let their children play football are Trump voters
      - jpttsn 9y ago
        Pretty sure we're talking past one another here. Thought experiment: if I describe a topic in the forest, and nobody is there to hear it, am I still being divisive?
        heygrady 9y ago
        One wonders why you would say divisive things aloud in an otherwise lonely forest. Saying something hurtful, offensive, divisive, unnecessary... is problematic regardless of the size of the audience. You can see that the original "divisive" comment [1] on this thread sparked a large response. It's true that a HackerNews thread has a lower global-political impact than, say, a presidential tweet or a Supreme Court ruling. But that shouldn't prevent anyone from thinking through their HN comments. Words matter. The comment we're both responding to [1] was unnecessarily divisive -- which partially obscured the commenter's otherwise good points (that team-thinking can obscure rational thinking). And that's particularly important on a website like HackerNews. Original divisive comment: "[Has football joined the list of] values that separate members of the Red Tribe from the Blue Tribe? Football is a red-state pastime." [1] The comment you responded to: "You're creating [divisive] discourse [by posing divisive questions]." [2] I think your response, pointing out that a comment on HN usually won't "create" a nationally divisive discourse [3], is missing the point. If you look at the rest of the thread you can see that it created a divisive debate within HackerNews. I think the point you're missing is that divisive language creates divisions wherever it is used and it's worthwhile to point that out -- even if you think you're only talking to yourself. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867048 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867414 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867450
- travisjungroth 9y ago
  I appreciate your comment. There's a difference between predicting people will be divisive and actually being divisive yourself.
- sangnoir 9y ago
  > I am deriding the sort of discourse that topics like this usually produce You have become what you hate - you are the one who introduced the subject. Its like "Has anyone compared $TOPIC to Nazis yet? This subject has a tendency to be Godwinned".
  - ineptech 9y ago
    I made a falsifiable prediction about reality. If I'd written an essay on Medium that ostensibly argued for one side's view, but which did so in a condescending and divisive manner more likely to show what a clever guy I am than to actually persuade anyone on the other side, then I would've become what I hate.
    - Stratoscope 9y ago
      But you did take one side's view in a condescending and divisive manner. The side you took is the one that divides people into a Red Tribe and a Blue Tribe, ascribes stereotypical views to each, and makes lists of attributes to categorize people into one of these two tribes. People are quite a bit more complex than that, and these kinds of arbitrary binary divisions get in the way of finding common ground.
      - marchenko 9y ago
        It's a bit of a strange prediction. If we take boxing as a model of a formerly massively-popular sport now considered excessively dangerous, we can observe that minority (Latino and African-American) participation remains high. These demographics are generally not considered part of the Red Tribe coalition. If football follows the same trend, it will be a weak tribal correlate at best.
        kelnos 9y ago
        Not trying to argue, but just curious: was boxing as big as football is now in the US? I'm not much into sports in general, and I wasn't around when boxing was big (or just completely missed it), so I'm lacking context.

schnable 9y ago

Football is hardly part of the culture wars.

tomjen3 9y ago
Computer games, sci-fi and atheism has/is part of the culture wars (at least on the internets).
NotSammyHagar 9y ago
Not today; but I think it will start to happen. Maybe it will be generational too. I love football but it's getting harder to justify the damage it does to the people doing it.
fullshark 9y ago
Are you familiar with Colin Kaepernick?
stevenwoo 9y ago
My recollection is the book Friday Night Lights lays out the racism and classism at the core of high school football and that's just in Texas and James Michener brought up these sorts of issues of societal opportunity cost/health cost/monetary benefit of the worship of football/basketball (from childhood to the 99% that don't make in pro or even college sports) in "Sports in America" decades ago.
mmjaa 9y ago
Of course it is. There is no reason for these antics, if not for the sake of culture.

learc83 9y ago

There's already plenty of red state soccer moms that refuse to let their kids play football.

dexterdog 9y ago
Which has worse concussion problems.
- fullshark 9y ago
  Soccer has worse concussion problems? I've not heard that. What's the source?
  - mgkimsal 9y ago
    using your head to hit the ball, and/or getting kicked in the head. ;) FWIW, though, I've not heard that point either.
    - heygrady 9y ago
      The possibility of concussions is present in [nearly?] every sport. Typically, head injuries are not a core part of gameplay. In the case of soccer, there have been concerted efforts to remove "heading" from practice and from games. Football is being targeted because minor/severe concussions are commonplace and result from a core aspect of the game.
      - mgkimsal 9y ago
        > The possibility of concussions is present in [nearly?] every sport Tennis, golf, swimming, weightlifting, etc - probably have a pretty low incidence of concussion. Stuff with teams and fast movement are probably most suspect; hockey and football would intuitively seem like the worst offenders.
  - trowawee 9y ago
    It's not true. They're both bad, but football has higher rates of concussion. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2140075/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2140075/

pavel_lishin 9y ago

Do kids face the same risk factors as professional NFL players? Someone who plays in high school isn't necessarily going to play football for their entire life; do four years of football from ages 14-18 significantly increase risk?

joshuagrgt 9y ago
The NYTimes article said that they tested over 200 brains, half were college or high school players only. 87% came back with CTE. One would hope that it is untenable for institutions of higher learning to profit off of giving their students long term brain damage.
- sulam 9y ago
  Specifically the percentage breakdown was 99% NFL players, 26% of high school players. It is a significant risk in high school, but clearly there is either a cumulative effect (very likely) and/or as you graduate to more competitive levels of the sport the character changes sufficiently to be more of a risk (also very likely). I was raised in Texas and was more the thin runner body than the football build, so I never played, though lots of people do play high school football there. It's interesting imagining that 1/4 of them could be walking around with CTE. Of course, keep in mind the study is biased by the fact that these brains were specifically donated for evaluation for CTE. It seems probable that CTE findings would be lower in the general population.
- ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
  That study was a bit misleading in that they only tested brains that were suspected of having CTE in the first place.
  - jdelaney 9y ago
    Dr. McKee, the study's author, acknowledged that and addressed it: > But 110 positives remain significant scientific evidence of an N.F.L. player’s risk of developing C.T.E., which can be diagnosed only after death. About 1,300 former players have died since the B.U. group began examining brains. So even if every one of the other 1,200 players had tested negative — which even the heartiest skeptics would agree could not possibly be the case — the minimum C.T.E. prevalence would be close to 9 percent, vastly higher than in the general population.

xxpor 9y ago

It already has been for 20+ years. Look at the HS football stadiums in TX, vs the amount parents will spend on travel soccer in NJ.

tomjen3 9y ago

I do hear complaints about ESPN being too political (but left leaning) and there was something about one playing not standing for the national anthem. So it seems that right now it is weakly associated with blue tribe. Of course as Grey Tribe I can't do anything but slowly shake my head at these college teams.

Mizza 9y ago

As with a lot of these things, we can look at western Europe as a historical example. Norway banned professional boxing over thirty five years ago for this reason, and it only returned very recently when a more conservative PM took power, and it happened amid plenty of controversy: https://www.thelocal.no/20161004/how-a-boxing-match-turned-into-a-political-fight-for-norways-pm https://www.thelocal.no/20161004/how-a-boxing-match-turned-i...

ApolloFortyNine 9y ago

I played football in up through High School, and I'd definitely say I would be a different person today if I hadn't gone through it. The camaraderie amongst the team is unique amongst every experience I've had since. Plus working through something so challenging definitely provides a great level of satisfaction. I like who I am today, even if I might have a higher risk for any symptoms, and I believe football played a key part in my development.

heygrady 9y ago
Feeling camaraderie is not exclusive to football. I felt that same thing being in the marching band and playing soccer. It is a good thing for young people to belong to a team and work together to achieve a common goal. Because it's possible to experience the benefits of camaraderie without the risks of brain damage, it's sensible to question if football is too dangerous for children.
- ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
  I made a response answering this over here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867607 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867607 Basically, Football works you harder physically (strength), which makes the camaraderie that much stronger (you all overcame the same adversity).
  - heygrady 9y ago
    Your core argument that football builds stronger camaraderie [than other sports or team-like activities] is unsupportable. There is no reason to believe that football is the key ingredient to lasting feelings of camaraderie. What if we just put high school students through a marines-style boot camp? Also, everyone from the marching band still remembers marching through Disney World in 100+ degree heat in full marching uniforms. It was tough and it was a memorable bond we all shared.
  - root_axis 9y ago
    Physicality is just one aspect of teamwork and camaraderie. Ever played in a (good) band? The levels of shared precision and intimacy required to synchronize on complex pieces of music for hours is difficult to put into words and certainly not to be taken lightly as far as camaraderie goes, you have to rely on the competence of your bandmates on a level that is relatively uncommon compared to most sports.

heygrady 9y ago

Maybe it's too far to prescribe "red v. blue" to this issue but it is indeed divisive. High school football has been controversial for many years because of safety concerns [1]. There is some anecdotal evidence that soccer is more popular in blue states [2]. For years, the NFL and its supporters claimed that concussion concerns were greatly overstated [3]. Also anecdotally, I had a Lyft driver who was also a high school football coach who was well versed in how many concussions occur in soccer. He wanted to tell me that football is as safe/dangerous as any other sport. That type of denialism--believing that mounting evidence can be safely ignored--is found in other "red" issues such as climate change, coal jobs, and Russia-gate. [1] High schools are closing football programs. https://www.si.com/mmqb/2015/11/23/high-schools-dropping-and-adding-football-safety-concerns https://www.si.com/mmqb/2015/11/23/high-schools-dropping-and... [2] Soccer is possibly a blue state thing. http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jul/10/peter-beinart/soccer-blue-state-game/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jul/10/... [3] NFL doctors downplayed the dangers. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/18/nfl-doctor-says-cte-is-being-over-exaggerated/ http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/18/nfl-doctor-s...

dragonwriter 9y ago

> Has "whether you let your kids play football" joined the long, long list of boolean values that separate members of the Red Tribe from the Blue Tribe? To the extent that such a list can be said to exist (some of them are Boolean values, but if it's a long list, it's only long because you are including lots of things that individually loosely correlate with tribal membership rather than separate it), attitudes towards kids playing football have been on it for decades. (It also correlates with race, welath, and other socio-economic factors in a way which aren't what you'd expect if you thought it was simply a matter of left/right political tribal identity.)

mcgrath_sh 9y ago

Depends on where you are from. In super blue Pittsburgh, not a chance on earth. Football will have to be nationally legisated against in order for its popularity to fall in Western PA. I am sure there are other, similar pockets in the country.

brandonmenc 9y ago
I'm originally from Western PA. It's not really "super blue" - at this point, it's pretty much just Republicans who also like unions.
- mcgrath_sh 9y ago
  When Pittsburgh's mayor is no longer elected in the Democratic primaries, I will be inclined to agree with you. Pittsburgh proper is still blue. There are red parts in Allegheny County, but that went blue last November too.

pnathan 9y ago

Hard for me to say, as I live in Seattle, but American football love is definitely non-partisan here. But certain sports carry too high a risk for me to support my child getting into them before 16ish. They must have a glimmering of a perspective on what life means before choosing to engage in activities that are significantly likely to permanently damage themselves for life. Particularly for football, there are brain effects. Implication here: for boys, football is off the table. For girls, competitive gymnastics. There are likely other sports that could be found as way too high permanent risk. For perspective on how I'm choosing: soccer is also risky and carries CTE risk, but less so than football. If boy wants to do skiing, running, or mountain biking, that is fine; crossfit, not so much (too aggressive). A certain amount of physical damage is far more acceptable than neurological damage. Things happen though; a friend of mine had his very young daughter fall into a pool and drown a few years after being preemie. That's this life on earth, sorrow and joy. I will give as much responsibility as I can, but the parent's responsibility to is to shape and limit around the ability of the child to react and foresee. Permitting choosing sports which have lifelong damage likelihood, when they are too young to understand the consequences, seems to be poor choice on my part.

LeifCarrotson 9y ago
> skiing, running, or mountain biking, that is fine Perhaps it's not a red or blue split, but those sports you listed are definitely on one side of a major class divide. Basketball and football are moving towards the other. And while I understand that a competition between some farm hicks and big-city boys can bring two groups together, access to sports like skiing is fairly exclusive.
- wbl 9y ago
  In the West yes. In the East a lot of small slopes are pretty accessible and cheap. New York even has a state run one not too far from NYC.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
    And to add my $.02, it was my blue-collar carpenter friend who introduced me to snowboarding when I lived in Connecticut.

Consultant32452 9y ago

Interesting anecdote from Chomsky on football and how it's a way of building jingoist fanatacism. Training young people to cheer for my team is preparing people to submit irrationally to power. As long as my political party wins, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA5jOdPiZWI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA5jOdPiZWI

groby_b 9y ago
Not to put too fine a point on it - Chomsky will find a way to illustrate how having beans for lunch will build jingoistic fascism. Yes, submitting irrationally to power is bad, and so is purely tribal thinking. But as it turns out, human beings are a bit more complex, and many are fine maintaining critical thinking skills while simultaneously having a sports team they identify with.

chrismealy 9y ago

All those African-Americans playing in the NFL, you think they're Republicans?

carapace 9y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcastaball https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcastaball South Park did it.