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Safari engineers have attended all service worker working group meetings, and they do contribute. However, I do share the frustrations over transparency. It's

Safari engineers have attended all service worker working group meetings, and they do contribute. However, I do share the frustrations over transparency. It's tough to get developers to care about things like offline-first, because it's tough for them to convince managers to allow them to spend time on a feature that won't work on iOS (since it won't work in Safari, and Apple has banned other browser engines on their platform). Ultimately it's users that lose out but also the web as a platform, as it pushes people, like the author of the article, towards walled-garden solutions like native apps. Apple is looking for service worker use-cases, so if it's something you're interested in, let them know https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2017-July/029285.html https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2017-July/0292....

SirHound 9y ago
They're not looking as much as you think: https://twitter.com/othermaciej/status/885999233463009280 https://twitter.com/othermaciej/status/885999233463009280 The overall vibes leaking from the Safari team on this matter have been arrogant, detached. I don't hold any hope.
cryptica 9y ago
This is not surprising of Apple. They've always been a walled garden, that's why I don't buy their products. I like to own products that give me full control as a user. When the iPod came out, I never understood why I couldn't just drag the music files directly onto the device and I had to get iTunes and use iTune's tedious interface. Now they have the app store; another unnecessary restriction. As a developer, it's nice to own an Android phone because I can just run whatever code I want on it and I don't need to buy any special licenses, hardware or proprietary SDKs to do that.
- jorvi 9y ago
  It's especially ironic once you remember that iOS 1 didn't even have apps: Steve said everything would be done on websites that would give a native experience...
  - the_common_man 9y ago
    That's only because he didn't see the opportunity and the ux. Not because he cared about freedom.
  - madeofpalk 9y ago
    Apple knew this wasn't true. They knew there was an public native SDK on the roadmap because web technologies didn't cut it. The Stocks and Weather app were originally HTML/CSS/JS apps just like Dashboard widgets (note Steve Jobs actually describing these apps on stage as 'widgets'), but the performance just wasn't there so they got reimplented using native apis.
- mrkrabo 9y ago
  >When the iPod came out, I never understood why I couldn't just drag the music files directly onto the device and I had to get iTunes and use iTune's tedious interface. Because MTP is utter rubbish. Really, people complain about iTunes? It's never failed me as slow as it is. Try using MTP...
  - phs2501 9y ago
    The iPod mounted as a perfectly-functional Firewire disk, yet you still had to use iTunes to put music on it for it to be playable on the device. (It was filed away in obfuscated filenames...)
  - anc84 9y ago
    NO one said anything about MTP. Copying files > anything.
    - mrkrabo 9y ago
      Copying files... how? Emulating a FAT32 disk? That sucks. exFAT? Patents. MTP? Sucks. So how?
      - digi_owl 9y ago
        Ethernet over USB, FTP/SCP/SMB?
      - TeMPOraL 9y ago
        What's wrong with emulating a FAT32 disk? I mean, the expected workflow is: I hook up the device to the computer, it shows up as a storage medium in my system. I can move files between the device and my computer as if it was an external disk or USB drive. Anything on top of that is designed to be annoying.
        emsy 9y ago
        FAT32 is a terribly outdated filesystem and should just not be used today, period. The filesize and name restrictions are awful. Mrkrabo does have a point.
- overcast 9y ago
  The "walled garden" is what prevents the horrendous disjointed mess that is the Android phone market. Sure, for a guy who likes hacking around stuff, it's fun for you. But for everyone else, there is a thousand different phones, with a thousand different interfaces, all running different versions of the Android OS, that will never be updated by the phone manufacturer. I understand where you're coming from, I do. But when it comes to a phone, I greatly prefer the standardized hardware/interface/OS over the free for all. I hate to use the "it just works" nonsense, but that is exactly what it does. Working in the Enterprise, the iPhone is infinitely easier for us to troubleshoot, and manage. Because everyone is running the same thing.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    > The "walled garden" is what prevents the horrendous disjointed mess that is the Android phone market. Sure, for a guy who likes hacking around stuff, it's fun for you. But for everyone else, there is a thousand different phones, with a thousand different interfaces, all running different versions of the Android OS, that will never be updated by the phone manufacturer. This is a non-sequitur. Fragmentation of Android OS versions isn't caused by Android letting you use web apps.
    - overcast 9y ago
      I was responding to the first two lines of their comment. If they are going to divert that way, then I'm going to respond to it.
      - euyyn 9y ago
        You're not making sense to me. u/jondubois dislikes the walled garden, which is the inability to run apps that don't go through Apple's app store (with the corresponding review and fees). You respond to those two lines by saying that the walled garden prevents fragmentation. It does not. * If you were unable to run apps other than via the Google Play Store in Android phones, the OS versions would still be fragmented. App developers have nothing to do with that. * If only Google manufactured and updated Android phones (hence no fragmentation), you would still be able to run whatever you wanted in the phone. "Walled garden" doesn't mean "closed source".
- scarface74 9y ago
  So how do you do playlists when you just drag files to folders? What if you wanted the same song in multiple playlists? How do you do smart playlist? All of this is not as popular now as it was during the iPods heyday but it was popular then.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    iTunes' UI for creating playlists and letting me add and remove songs from the device by dragging and dropping the files could be perfectly compatible.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - amiga-workbench 9y ago
    What is a M3U file
    - scarface74 9y ago
      If you're creating a m3u file you aren't just copying files to the player.
      - amiga-workbench 9y ago
        I handle playlist creation on my computer, and clone my entire library onto my phone, my playlist files contain relative paths and its pretty seamless.
        scarface74 9y ago
        And you think that's easier than iTunes was in the heyday of the iPod?
        amiga-workbench 9y ago
- octalmage 9y ago
  I just want to note that as a developer you can run any code you want on your iPhone through XCode for free. You just can't distribute it in the App Store without a license ($100 a year). You can distribute the code though, and users can compile and install it. This is how Kodi distributes on Apple platforms. This is a newish change though, within the last couple of years.
  - netheril96 9y ago
    Many entitlements still require you to buy a certificate from Apple. You cannot, for example, compile and run your own VPN software.
    - mrpippy 9y ago
      Buy? I've never seen anything to suggest that special entitlements from Apple (KEXT signing on Mac, Network Extension usage on iOS, etc.) requires any payment besides the $100/yr developer program fee
      - netheril96 9y ago
        Network Extension doesn't require special entitlement anymore?
    - briandear 9y ago
      Not true.
  - tyleraldrich 9y ago
    You can run any code you want on your iPhone through XCode for free as long as you have a Mac, which is much more expensive than the app store license.
  - TheAceOfHearts 9y ago
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression you would then be required to reinstall each app every 7 days. In addition, I've read online claims that they limit you to something like 3 App IDs per week on a personal account. Doesn't mean you have to reinstall all your apps every week?
pomber 9y ago
Can you share more information about how the ban to other browsers works? Safari can do whatever they want but Apple banning competition is what hurts the web.
_bohm 9y ago
>Apple has banned other browser engines on their platform. Can you elaborate on this a bit? I primarily use Chrome as my browser on iOS. Is it really just running the Safari engine under the hood?
- akarambir 9y ago
  Yes. For this very reason, Mozilla was not porting Firefox to iOS for a very long time. Now, Firefox is also running iOS provided rendering engine.

SirHound 9y ago

They're not looking as much as you think: https://twitter.com/othermaciej/status/885999233463009280 https://twitter.com/othermaciej/status/885999233463009280 The overall vibes leaking from the Safari team on this matter have been arrogant, detached. I don't hold any hope.

cryptica 9y ago

This is not surprising of Apple. They've always been a walled garden, that's why I don't buy their products. I like to own products that give me full control as a user. When the iPod came out, I never understood why I couldn't just drag the music files directly onto the device and I had to get iTunes and use iTune's tedious interface. Now they have the app store; another unnecessary restriction. As a developer, it's nice to own an Android phone because I can just run whatever code I want on it and I don't need to buy any special licenses, hardware or proprietary SDKs to do that.

jorvi 9y ago
It's especially ironic once you remember that iOS 1 didn't even have apps: Steve said everything would be done on websites that would give a native experience...
- the_common_man 9y ago
  That's only because he didn't see the opportunity and the ux. Not because he cared about freedom.
- madeofpalk 9y ago
  Apple knew this wasn't true. They knew there was an public native SDK on the roadmap because web technologies didn't cut it. The Stocks and Weather app were originally HTML/CSS/JS apps just like Dashboard widgets (note Steve Jobs actually describing these apps on stage as 'widgets'), but the performance just wasn't there so they got reimplented using native apis.
mrkrabo 9y ago
>When the iPod came out, I never understood why I couldn't just drag the music files directly onto the device and I had to get iTunes and use iTune's tedious interface. Because MTP is utter rubbish. Really, people complain about iTunes? It's never failed me as slow as it is. Try using MTP...
- phs2501 9y ago
  The iPod mounted as a perfectly-functional Firewire disk, yet you still had to use iTunes to put music on it for it to be playable on the device. (It was filed away in obfuscated filenames...)
- anc84 9y ago
  NO one said anything about MTP. Copying files > anything.
  - mrkrabo 9y ago
    Copying files... how? Emulating a FAT32 disk? That sucks. exFAT? Patents. MTP? Sucks. So how?
    - digi_owl 9y ago
      Ethernet over USB, FTP/SCP/SMB?
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      What's wrong with emulating a FAT32 disk? I mean, the expected workflow is: I hook up the device to the computer, it shows up as a storage medium in my system. I can move files between the device and my computer as if it was an external disk or USB drive. Anything on top of that is designed to be annoying.
      - emsy 9y ago
        FAT32 is a terribly outdated filesystem and should just not be used today, period. The filesize and name restrictions are awful. Mrkrabo does have a point.
overcast 9y ago
The "walled garden" is what prevents the horrendous disjointed mess that is the Android phone market. Sure, for a guy who likes hacking around stuff, it's fun for you. But for everyone else, there is a thousand different phones, with a thousand different interfaces, all running different versions of the Android OS, that will never be updated by the phone manufacturer. I understand where you're coming from, I do. But when it comes to a phone, I greatly prefer the standardized hardware/interface/OS over the free for all. I hate to use the "it just works" nonsense, but that is exactly what it does. Working in the Enterprise, the iPhone is infinitely easier for us to troubleshoot, and manage. Because everyone is running the same thing.
- euyyn 9y ago
  > The "walled garden" is what prevents the horrendous disjointed mess that is the Android phone market. Sure, for a guy who likes hacking around stuff, it's fun for you. But for everyone else, there is a thousand different phones, with a thousand different interfaces, all running different versions of the Android OS, that will never be updated by the phone manufacturer. This is a non-sequitur. Fragmentation of Android OS versions isn't caused by Android letting you use web apps.
  - overcast 9y ago
    I was responding to the first two lines of their comment. If they are going to divert that way, then I'm going to respond to it.
    - euyyn 9y ago
      You're not making sense to me. u/jondubois dislikes the walled garden, which is the inability to run apps that don't go through Apple's app store (with the corresponding review and fees). You respond to those two lines by saying that the walled garden prevents fragmentation. It does not. * If you were unable to run apps other than via the Google Play Store in Android phones, the OS versions would still be fragmented. App developers have nothing to do with that. * If only Google manufactured and updated Android phones (hence no fragmentation), you would still be able to run whatever you wanted in the phone. "Walled garden" doesn't mean "closed source".
scarface74 9y ago
So how do you do playlists when you just drag files to folders? What if you wanted the same song in multiple playlists? How do you do smart playlist? All of this is not as popular now as it was during the iPods heyday but it was popular then.
- euyyn 9y ago
  iTunes' UI for creating playlists and letting me add and remove songs from the device by dragging and dropping the files could be perfectly compatible.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- amiga-workbench 9y ago
  What is a M3U file
  - scarface74 9y ago
    If you're creating a m3u file you aren't just copying files to the player.
    - amiga-workbench 9y ago
      I handle playlist creation on my computer, and clone my entire library onto my phone, my playlist files contain relative paths and its pretty seamless.
      - scarface74 9y ago
        And you think that's easier than iTunes was in the heyday of the iPod?
        amiga-workbench 9y ago
octalmage 9y ago
I just want to note that as a developer you can run any code you want on your iPhone through XCode for free. You just can't distribute it in the App Store without a license ($100 a year). You can distribute the code though, and users can compile and install it. This is how Kodi distributes on Apple platforms. This is a newish change though, within the last couple of years.
- netheril96 9y ago
  Many entitlements still require you to buy a certificate from Apple. You cannot, for example, compile and run your own VPN software.
  - mrpippy 9y ago
    Buy? I've never seen anything to suggest that special entitlements from Apple (KEXT signing on Mac, Network Extension usage on iOS, etc.) requires any payment besides the $100/yr developer program fee
    - netheril96 9y ago
      Network Extension doesn't require special entitlement anymore?
  - briandear 9y ago
    Not true.
- tyleraldrich 9y ago
  You can run any code you want on your iPhone through XCode for free as long as you have a Mac, which is much more expensive than the app store license.
- TheAceOfHearts 9y ago
  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression you would then be required to reinstall each app every 7 days. In addition, I've read online claims that they limit you to something like 3 App IDs per week on a personal account. Doesn't mean you have to reinstall all your apps every week?

pomber 9y ago

Can you share more information about how the ban to other browsers works? Safari can do whatever they want but Apple banning competition is what hurts the web.

_bohm 9y ago

>Apple has banned other browser engines on their platform. Can you elaborate on this a bit? I primarily use Chrome as my browser on iOS. Is it really just running the Safari engine under the hood?

akarambir 9y ago
Yes. For this very reason, Mozilla was not porting Firefox to iOS for a very long time. Now, Firefox is also running iOS provided rendering engine.