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The hatred of linux on the desktop is terribly cliche, especially on a site targeted towards hackers. Linux on my desktop is the greatest development environme

The hatred of linux on the desktop is terribly cliche, especially on a site targeted towards hackers. Linux on my desktop is the greatest development environment I've ever used, having played extensively with OSX and Windows as well. I can easily install new libraries and "apt-get source" allows me to tinker with existing software easily and immediately build and execute the results. All of the development environment is thoroughly documented. But now, some influential people start saying how much better their version is. Specifically their closed, sealed-off, experience-driven version. Arguing "ease of use" and "shiny end user experience" rings really hollow to me. I use vim -- think I care about easy to use or shiny user experiences? -- and I use it because it's a powerful tool for its job. I just don't get it when hackers start telling other hackers that they should use a more restrictive environment because it'll make them feel better or is easier to use. Instead, ask yourself: is it the most powerful tool for the job? So sure, tell your parents and siblings to buy an iPhone. Hell, use your iPhone for anything you can -- it's a fantastic device. But stop telling future developers that it's worth giving up control for rounded corners and subtle shadows. And stop comparing its competition negatively to an environment that I, and others, find superior to any other.

cmelbye 16y ago
You completely missed the point of this article, which I find odd because the author clearly explained why he compared Android with desktop Linux. By "Linux on the desktop", he means Linux on regular Joe's desktop, not the hacker's desktop. The author agrees with you that Linux is made for people like you that want/need the extra control, etc, whatever. This is not what the majority are looking for in a desktop distribution.
- sprout 16y ago
  The only reason I don't recommend desktop Linux to people is that explaining ubuntu-restricted-extras to them is too much work. Other than that it 'just works' out of the box and anyone who is currently using Windows XP should upgrade.
  - neilc 16y ago
    anyone who is currently using Windows XP should upgrade Can we stop this silly meme of calling a switch between two unrelated products an "upgrade"? WinXP => Linux is an "upgrade" that has 0% software compatibility, and requires a massive amount of retraining and reconfiguration. Which is to say, it isn't an "upgrade" at all.
    - etfb 16y ago
      ...has 0% software compatibility, and requires a massive amount of retraining and reconfiguration... Naaah. Too easy. No comment.
    - sprout 16y ago
      There are a variety of accepted definitions of upgrade, and most of them agree with my usage. Only one agrees with your 'correct' usage. Ubuntu is a software platform that provides improved performance in a variety of ways, including 90% software compatibility, since most of the important software is web, Flash, or Java based. (Of course, I'm talking about home use.) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/upgrade http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/upgrade http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/upgrade http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/upgrade
- davidw 16y ago
  I run the web site for a friend who has an antique book store here in Padova. He is not a power user kind of guy. And his friend put Ubuntu on his laptop after he got sick of getting viruses and random problems. So far, he's quite happy with it - which honestly surprised me, because I don't really push people to convert to Linux (I don't like doing desktop support). It's surprisingly good these days, though, and continues to improve.
- irrelative 16y ago
  I think it's a little harsh to say that I "completely missed the point" of this article. I get it -- Apple products are very polished and carefully designed and the Android lacks that polish but is feature rich. Is that an accurate description, or did I completely miss something else? Marco is a developer with some very successful products, and I really respect his work. I feel that makes him influential in the hacker community and this post did make it rather high on HN. However, respecting Apple's products has gone too far when I can barely tell it from a PR piece. I don't know what it is, but it's not news. I really don't want to begin discussing regular Joe's desktop experience -- summarizing people into 2 camps trivializes the actual wants and needs of a computer user. What I can tell you is that on a site devoted to hacker news, this post seems like 'dog bites man' with an easy shot at a strawman. I don't mean this to be a biting criticism. As a developer, I just wish that I had started using linux earlier because I would have learned a lot more and it would be more second nature. Out there, someone 10 years younger than me is being turned off from using linux on the desktop because of posts like this, and that's a shame.
  - sandee 16y ago
    > As a developer, I just wish that I had started using linux earlier because I would have learned a lot more and it Total agree. After years of windows, i moved to Linux Desktop since last 2 years. How i wish, i had done that earlier.
  - Robin_Message 16y ago
    > I think it's a little harsh to say that I "completely missed the point" of this article. I get it -- Apple products are very polished and carefully designed and the Android lacks that polish but is feature rich. Is that an accurate description, or did I completely miss something else? What you are missing is that what you are calling "polish" is 90% of the quality of a product to a consumer. It's not about gradients or drop shadows. It's about saying no in the development process, and making sure everything just works. To give a counter-example of polish, here is a problem I had on my work machine. It was recently upgraded to Fedora Core 11, a seemingly sensible choice. When I first logged in, the volume control mumbled something about having been deleted. I had a look for another one, only to discover that there is no simple volume control. For some development reason, which I don't give a shit about, someone has removed the existing volume control, and some other subsystem is meant to provide one, but they haven't gotten around to it yet. That is why Linux on the desktop is dead, and as long as Linux is developed in the bazaar, it will always be dead (but great for geeks!)
scottdw2 16y ago
You bring up some interesting points. One question worth pondering, though, is "what does it mean for a tool to be powerful"? Since you brought up VIM let's take text editors as an example. VIM is indeed a powerful editor. It gives you a lot of tools for quickly editing text. The problems I face, usually aren't related to typing. It's in figuring out what to type in the first place, and where to type it. When dealing with a large code base, the things I need most are code navigation capabilities. What is this? Where is it used? What does the call graph look like? Etc. Is VIM the most powerful tool for code navigation? No. It's far from it. One of the best is a tool called source insight. It's simple, fast and easy to use. No one will ever tell you are cool for learning how to use it, because you don't have to learn how to use it. It just works. There's no sense of mastery involved. It just works. It brings the information to you, when you need it, in the context it's needed in. That makes it VERRY powerful. You can say the same thing about a phone. Bringing you information in a way that is efortless and enjoyable is powerful. It may not be "cool" with the same ubergeek street cred you get from learning VI. But that doesn't mean it's not powerful. Far from it.
againstyou 16y ago
I can easily install new libraries and "apt-get source" allows me to tinker with existing software easily you can do the same thing on a mac, in a elegant way, so what's the advantage to do it on linux ? I use vim you can also use vim in a elegant mac terminal, what's the point here ? And stop comparing its competition negatively who was doing that ?

cmelbye 16y ago

You completely missed the point of this article, which I find odd because the author clearly explained why he compared Android with desktop Linux. By "Linux on the desktop", he means Linux on regular Joe's desktop, not the hacker's desktop. The author agrees with you that Linux is made for people like you that want/need the extra control, etc, whatever. This is not what the majority are looking for in a desktop distribution.

sprout 16y ago
The only reason I don't recommend desktop Linux to people is that explaining ubuntu-restricted-extras to them is too much work. Other than that it 'just works' out of the box and anyone who is currently using Windows XP should upgrade.
- neilc 16y ago
  anyone who is currently using Windows XP should upgrade Can we stop this silly meme of calling a switch between two unrelated products an "upgrade"? WinXP => Linux is an "upgrade" that has 0% software compatibility, and requires a massive amount of retraining and reconfiguration. Which is to say, it isn't an "upgrade" at all.
  - etfb 16y ago
    ...has 0% software compatibility, and requires a massive amount of retraining and reconfiguration... Naaah. Too easy. No comment.
  - sprout 16y ago
    There are a variety of accepted definitions of upgrade, and most of them agree with my usage. Only one agrees with your 'correct' usage. Ubuntu is a software platform that provides improved performance in a variety of ways, including 90% software compatibility, since most of the important software is web, Flash, or Java based. (Of course, I'm talking about home use.) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/upgrade http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/upgrade http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/upgrade http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/upgrade
davidw 16y ago
I run the web site for a friend who has an antique book store here in Padova. He is not a power user kind of guy. And his friend put Ubuntu on his laptop after he got sick of getting viruses and random problems. So far, he's quite happy with it - which honestly surprised me, because I don't really push people to convert to Linux (I don't like doing desktop support). It's surprisingly good these days, though, and continues to improve.
irrelative 16y ago
I think it's a little harsh to say that I "completely missed the point" of this article. I get it -- Apple products are very polished and carefully designed and the Android lacks that polish but is feature rich. Is that an accurate description, or did I completely miss something else? Marco is a developer with some very successful products, and I really respect his work. I feel that makes him influential in the hacker community and this post did make it rather high on HN. However, respecting Apple's products has gone too far when I can barely tell it from a PR piece. I don't know what it is, but it's not news. I really don't want to begin discussing regular Joe's desktop experience -- summarizing people into 2 camps trivializes the actual wants and needs of a computer user. What I can tell you is that on a site devoted to hacker news, this post seems like 'dog bites man' with an easy shot at a strawman. I don't mean this to be a biting criticism. As a developer, I just wish that I had started using linux earlier because I would have learned a lot more and it would be more second nature. Out there, someone 10 years younger than me is being turned off from using linux on the desktop because of posts like this, and that's a shame.
- sandee 16y ago
  > As a developer, I just wish that I had started using linux earlier because I would have learned a lot more and it Total agree. After years of windows, i moved to Linux Desktop since last 2 years. How i wish, i had done that earlier.
- Robin_Message 16y ago
  > I think it's a little harsh to say that I "completely missed the point" of this article. I get it -- Apple products are very polished and carefully designed and the Android lacks that polish but is feature rich. Is that an accurate description, or did I completely miss something else? What you are missing is that what you are calling "polish" is 90% of the quality of a product to a consumer. It's not about gradients or drop shadows. It's about saying no in the development process, and making sure everything just works. To give a counter-example of polish, here is a problem I had on my work machine. It was recently upgraded to Fedora Core 11, a seemingly sensible choice. When I first logged in, the volume control mumbled something about having been deleted. I had a look for another one, only to discover that there is no simple volume control. For some development reason, which I don't give a shit about, someone has removed the existing volume control, and some other subsystem is meant to provide one, but they haven't gotten around to it yet. That is why Linux on the desktop is dead, and as long as Linux is developed in the bazaar, it will always be dead (but great for geeks!)

scottdw2 16y ago

You bring up some interesting points. One question worth pondering, though, is "what does it mean for a tool to be powerful"? Since you brought up VIM let's take text editors as an example. VIM is indeed a powerful editor. It gives you a lot of tools for quickly editing text. The problems I face, usually aren't related to typing. It's in figuring out what to type in the first place, and where to type it. When dealing with a large code base, the things I need most are code navigation capabilities. What is this? Where is it used? What does the call graph look like? Etc. Is VIM the most powerful tool for code navigation? No. It's far from it. One of the best is a tool called source insight. It's simple, fast and easy to use. No one will ever tell you are cool for learning how to use it, because you don't have to learn how to use it. It just works. There's no sense of mastery involved. It just works. It brings the information to you, when you need it, in the context it's needed in. That makes it VERRY powerful. You can say the same thing about a phone. Bringing you information in a way that is efortless and enjoyable is powerful. It may not be "cool" with the same ubergeek street cred you get from learning VI. But that doesn't mean it's not powerful. Far from it.

againstyou 16y ago

I can easily install new libraries and "apt-get source" allows me to tinker with existing software easily you can do the same thing on a mac, in a elegant way, so what's the advantage to do it on linux ? I use vim you can also use vim in a elegant mac terminal, what's the point here ? And stop comparing its competition negatively who was doing that ?