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This part made me cringe: "Marks herself points out that employers don’t generally care about the content of job applicants’ classes; they’re more interested i

This part made me cringe: "Marks herself points out that employers don’t generally care about the content of job applicants’ classes; they’re more interested in whether an applicant graduated, was able to meet deadlines, and work within a bureaucracy"

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
madair 16y ago
Robin Hanson has been on this subject for awhile: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/05/why-schools-test-often.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/05/why-schools-test-often... Also: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/06/school-attitudes.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/06/school-attitudes.html
Natsu 16y ago
Sad, but probably true. One of the classes I remember the most was one that was set up to give engineering students an introduction to the workplace. So, you had business-like tasks (most of which were centered around Excel) and you were graded by whether you met, exceeded, or didn't meet expectations. In one assignment, I made a really fancy Excel spreadsheet (it was a producer/consumer type problem, and my 1s for produced units actually moved across the page). But it had a bug, and the numbers it created were pure gibberish. I found the bug but had no time to fix it. I documented this fact somewhere in the fine print and talked about how I would fix it if I had more time. It looked cool though, even if it didn't work at all, so I got "exceeds expectations." I had known how demos work long before that, of course, but I think it was my first real demo. As for studying, well, maybe they should ask what happens to it after college? I didn't think we were supposed to stop. Which reminds me, I should fire up Anki and review.
- seancron 16y ago
  I agree that college should not be the end of learning. However, I wouldn't want to be taught by a professor that says "that employers don’t generally care about the content of job applicants’ classes; they’re more interested in whether an applicant graduated, was able to meet deadlines, and work within a bureaucracy." If they truly believe that, it will reflect in their courses. Instead of trying to teach their subject to the best of their ability, they'll might instead give many deadline oriented assignments that do not help learning of any kind. Instead of being accessible for students to ask questions, they might make it a more difficult process to get in touch with them, rationalizing that "they don't really care about the subject, all they care about is getting a good grade, and graduating so they can get a job in some bureaucratic workplace." Professors with that attitude can turn students off to a subject that they would have otherwise enjoyed, and make it more difficult to learn.
  - robryan 16y ago
    Yeah, in this situation they are forgetting that not everyone in the class is doing it just to essentially check off a box in their degree process. Recently there was an email sent out that was basically like "do data mining, it's big in industry", giving that subject a miss because the lecturer is terrible but also because he's so industry focused. I'm not planning on continuing in academia but I'm certainly not wanting to take classes that are just there to fulfil degree requirements without going deep into the subject and providing interesting and challenging content.
orangecat 16y ago
Not surprising. The degree requirement is largely a (time-consuming, expensive, and inaccurate) IQ and class filter that employers can use without getting sued out of existence.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  agreed. for a lot of folks I believe it's used as a filter. and yes, a very expensive and time-consuming one. kinda sad actually. college is not without substantive merit to the student, beyond the filter effect, so it's not all superficial however.
kjhghjklkjmn 16y ago
True - except for the % that are heading to grad school to do physics studying is irrelevent. The purpose of a college degree is to reduce the number of job applicants HR depts have to deal with. Since everybody now gets A for every class recruiters now look for extra-activities. So studing to understand the causes of WWI in more detail is less use to you, and the recruiter, than you also being in the junior entrepreneurs club.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

madair 16y ago

Robin Hanson has been on this subject for awhile: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/05/why-schools-test-often.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/05/why-schools-test-often... Also: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/06/school-attitudes.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/06/school-attitudes.html

Natsu 16y ago

Sad, but probably true. One of the classes I remember the most was one that was set up to give engineering students an introduction to the workplace. So, you had business-like tasks (most of which were centered around Excel) and you were graded by whether you met, exceeded, or didn't meet expectations. In one assignment, I made a really fancy Excel spreadsheet (it was a producer/consumer type problem, and my 1s for produced units actually moved across the page). But it had a bug, and the numbers it created were pure gibberish. I found the bug but had no time to fix it. I documented this fact somewhere in the fine print and talked about how I would fix it if I had more time. It looked cool though, even if it didn't work at all, so I got "exceeds expectations." I had known how demos work long before that, of course, but I think it was my first real demo. As for studying, well, maybe they should ask what happens to it after college? I didn't think we were supposed to stop. Which reminds me, I should fire up Anki and review.

seancron 16y ago
I agree that college should not be the end of learning. However, I wouldn't want to be taught by a professor that says "that employers don’t generally care about the content of job applicants’ classes; they’re more interested in whether an applicant graduated, was able to meet deadlines, and work within a bureaucracy." If they truly believe that, it will reflect in their courses. Instead of trying to teach their subject to the best of their ability, they'll might instead give many deadline oriented assignments that do not help learning of any kind. Instead of being accessible for students to ask questions, they might make it a more difficult process to get in touch with them, rationalizing that "they don't really care about the subject, all they care about is getting a good grade, and graduating so they can get a job in some bureaucratic workplace." Professors with that attitude can turn students off to a subject that they would have otherwise enjoyed, and make it more difficult to learn.
- robryan 16y ago
  Yeah, in this situation they are forgetting that not everyone in the class is doing it just to essentially check off a box in their degree process. Recently there was an email sent out that was basically like "do data mining, it's big in industry", giving that subject a miss because the lecturer is terrible but also because he's so industry focused. I'm not planning on continuing in academia but I'm certainly not wanting to take classes that are just there to fulfil degree requirements without going deep into the subject and providing interesting and challenging content.

orangecat 16y ago

Not surprising. The degree requirement is largely a (time-consuming, expensive, and inaccurate) IQ and class filter that employers can use without getting sued out of existence.

mkramlich 16y ago
agreed. for a lot of folks I believe it's used as a filter. and yes, a very expensive and time-consuming one. kinda sad actually. college is not without substantive merit to the student, beyond the filter effect, so it's not all superficial however.

kjhghjklkjmn 16y ago

True - except for the % that are heading to grad school to do physics studying is irrelevent. The purpose of a college degree is to reduce the number of job applicants HR depts have to deal with. Since everybody now gets A for every class recruiters now look for extra-activities. So studing to understand the causes of WWI in more detail is less use to you, and the recruiter, than you also being in the junior entrepreneurs club.