4 ms·

The drivers are probably pretty complicated and thus valuable IP.

thomastjeffery 9y ago
I don't buy that. Every wifi chipset has working drivers; therefore there is little to no value in Broadcom's driver as "IP". Contrast that to the value of having a free driver that can receive security patches from anyone at any time.
- johncolanduoni 9y ago
  Every GPU has working drivers, but optimizations within them can make huge differences in performance on the same hardware.
  - thomastjeffery 9y ago
    Comparing a Wifi chipset to a video card is like comparing a bicycle to a sports car.
  - monocasa 9y ago
    The driver 'optimizations' in GPUs tend to boil down to hand written replacements for unoptimal/broken shaders and API call sequences on a per application basis. I expect a network card to not 'interpret' my traffic in a similar way.
    - vvanders 9y ago
      As someone who spent a ton of time in this space(working with most mobile GPU vendors from Android E to L) you're talking about things just at the surface. The way the drivers + backing architecture are built contains tons of IP and things that they would very much not want their competitors seeing. Our team built our reputation and relationship on keeping that data separate and confidential despite working with just about every vendor out there.
    - agumonkey 9y ago
      Adding the double blind optimizations leading to absurdly complex drivers that tries to guess how user code tries to guess driver logic... maybe vulkan will help open source GPU drivers in the end.
  - fulafel 9y ago
    GPU drivers are very bug ridden and 3D apps can easily cause OS crashes. Apps are tested so they don't trigger those bugs. Witness all the complaint comments on webgl posts about machine crashes - and that's with a thick driver bug workaround layer in browsers.
- gleenn 9y ago
  Tell that to the Open and guys who have been dying for wifi drivers for years. They are definitely not all open. Furthermore, not nearly as many people are running alternative OSes on their phones as they are on other types of computers.
- freyir 9y ago
  Every wifi chipset has working drivers Every existing Wi-Fi chipset has working drivers. A startup begins from scratch, which is one more barrier to entry.
  - justbuchanan 9y ago
    True, but there are many open-source wi-fi drivers out there already. Unless broadcom's implementation is something out of the ordinary, releasing their driver doesn't really change the game.
    - cyphar 9y ago
      And experience with Broadcom's wireless drivers (and NFC chips) tells me that the only thing extraordinary about them is how awful and limited they are.
- colordrops 9y ago
  It's not that other chipsets have working drivers, but that am open driver would reveal technical secrets of both their software and hardware design. Not saying I agree with proprietary drivers though.
- hedora 9y ago
  I'd argue most wifi chipsets do not have working drivers, but I have an apparently high bar for "working": It has to stay authenticated to a given access point indefinitely, can't kernel panic or require reboots to switch to a new network, and needs to have competitive throughout and tail latencies under load. Most wifi adapters fail at least one of these requirements under windows or linux.
- londons_explore 9y ago
  Many of the "features" of a wifi chipset are implemented in drivers or firmware. QoS? Smarter packet scheduling? Better interference protection? All of those are likley in the drivers. Competitors could review the code and "copy" how great features work without actually copying the code.
azernik 9y ago
Having worked on enterprise APs using BCM and Atheros chipsets: The driver is not deeply protected IP. They will hand out full copies to any device manufacturer that uses they're chipset, so that they can integrate it with their systems. The secret sauce, the bit that they won't share with anyone even if it's necessary for debugging, is the on-chip firmware. That's the stuff they take seriously. The driver itself is just a lawyer thing.

I don't buy that. Every wifi chipset has working drivers; therefore there is little to no value in Broadcom's driver as "IP". Contrast that to the value of having a free driver that can receive security patches from anyone at any time.

johncolanduoni 9y ago
Every GPU has working drivers, but optimizations within them can make huge differences in performance on the same hardware.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  Comparing a Wifi chipset to a video card is like comparing a bicycle to a sports car.
- monocasa 9y ago
  The driver 'optimizations' in GPUs tend to boil down to hand written replacements for unoptimal/broken shaders and API call sequences on a per application basis. I expect a network card to not 'interpret' my traffic in a similar way.
  - vvanders 9y ago
    As someone who spent a ton of time in this space(working with most mobile GPU vendors from Android E to L) you're talking about things just at the surface. The way the drivers + backing architecture are built contains tons of IP and things that they would very much not want their competitors seeing. Our team built our reputation and relationship on keeping that data separate and confidential despite working with just about every vendor out there.
  - agumonkey 9y ago
    Adding the double blind optimizations leading to absurdly complex drivers that tries to guess how user code tries to guess driver logic... maybe vulkan will help open source GPU drivers in the end.
- fulafel 9y ago
  GPU drivers are very bug ridden and 3D apps can easily cause OS crashes. Apps are tested so they don't trigger those bugs. Witness all the complaint comments on webgl posts about machine crashes - and that's with a thick driver bug workaround layer in browsers.
gleenn 9y ago
Tell that to the Open and guys who have been dying for wifi drivers for years. They are definitely not all open. Furthermore, not nearly as many people are running alternative OSes on their phones as they are on other types of computers.
freyir 9y ago
Every wifi chipset has working drivers Every existing Wi-Fi chipset has working drivers. A startup begins from scratch, which is one more barrier to entry.
- justbuchanan 9y ago
  True, but there are many open-source wi-fi drivers out there already. Unless broadcom's implementation is something out of the ordinary, releasing their driver doesn't really change the game.
  - cyphar 9y ago
    And experience with Broadcom's wireless drivers (and NFC chips) tells me that the only thing extraordinary about them is how awful and limited they are.
colordrops 9y ago
It's not that other chipsets have working drivers, but that am open driver would reveal technical secrets of both their software and hardware design. Not saying I agree with proprietary drivers though.
hedora 9y ago
I'd argue most wifi chipsets do not have working drivers, but I have an apparently high bar for "working": It has to stay authenticated to a given access point indefinitely, can't kernel panic or require reboots to switch to a new network, and needs to have competitive throughout and tail latencies under load. Most wifi adapters fail at least one of these requirements under windows or linux.
londons_explore 9y ago
Many of the "features" of a wifi chipset are implemented in drivers or firmware. QoS? Smarter packet scheduling? Better interference protection? All of those are likley in the drivers. Competitors could review the code and "copy" how great features work without actually copying the code.

azernik 9y ago

Having worked on enterprise APs using BCM and Atheros chipsets: The driver is not deeply protected IP. They will hand out full copies to any device manufacturer that uses they're chipset, so that they can integrate it with their systems. The secret sauce, the bit that they won't share with anyone even if it's necessary for debugging, is the on-chip firmware. That's the stuff they take seriously. The driver itself is just a lawyer thing.