4 ms·

In my experience in tech (only a few years, I came from finance, and before that construction, weirdly) people are super cynical and often believe that they kno

In my experience in tech (only a few years, I came from finance, and before that construction, weirdly) people are super cynical and often believe that they know more about _any_ business because they can write some code or something similar. I have never been around more people who consistently think they know better than everyone else. This was a surprising thing for me because I assumed engineers would be more curious and thusly more humble. It's actually a really unappealing part of my experience in the industry that often makes me wonder how long I'll last in it.

camhenlin 9y ago
Seasoned programmers who have worked on software across several industries are probably pretty good at understanding and translating day to day business tasks into automated code. To do that you almost have to understand a business inside and out. That's their job. If more people were humble, less would get done
- dopamean 9y ago
  That make's plenty of sense but I have a hard time believing that so many of the commenters here have the experience you just described. I know it is certainly not true of the people I interact with offline on a regular basis. Also, I'm not sure I really buy the argument that because you can automate some "day to day business tasks" means you know better about how a business should be run. Automating a process that already exists is not the same as deciding which processes need to exist and which don't. Certainly, there are people who can both but I'd be lying if I said any significant number of engineers I know could really do both.
  - nine_k 9y ago
    Humble is opposite to arrogant, not to decisive or knowledgeable. See also: Dunning-Kruger effect.
  - GFischer 9y ago
    Honestly, I've seen so many truly awful managers that I'd trust that the engineers "know better about how a business should be run"... from an operational standpoint. However, there's the magical "sales" and "public relations" side which those same awful (operationally) managers usually excel at. When those managers have a strong CIO or operations guy by their side they're a killing team, but I've seen cases where they get sweet-talked by an atrocious ignorant CIO (and they can't see it because they're not knowledgeable themselves). I've also seen strong, well rounded CEOs... and many were engineers transitioned to management roles (with MBAs, etc).
tlogan 9y ago
No - it is just about age. HN readers are younger thus they think they know more. Old people will just say: "I don't know about that" [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvT_gqs5ETk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvT_gqs5ETk
- smcl 9y ago
  I would've thought it's more that HN'ers tend to have first or second hand experience tech boom/busts, and each subsequent sky-high validation brings back memories and feelings that are hard to ignore
- pen2l 9y ago
  HN commenters, the more visible ones, are not that young (by young I presume you mean anywhere in the 20s). https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders I think the median age in the top 10, for example, is around 40.
- fsociety 9y ago
  I work with quite a few "old people" who will happily explain everything to you in the most definitive manner possible.
- dfrey 9y ago
  This reminded me of a chunk from an [interview with Linus Torvalds](http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/linux-at-25-qa-with-linus-torvalds http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/linux-at-25-qa-w...) Stephen Cass: You’re a much more experienced programmer now versus 25 years ago. What’s one thing you know now that you wish your younger self knew? Linus Torvalds: Actually, I credit the fact that I didn’t know what the hell I was setting myself up for for a lot of the success of Linux. If I had known what I know today when I started, I would never have had the chutzpah to start writing my own operating system: You need a certain amount of naïveté to think that you can do it. I really think that was needed for the project to get started and to succeed. The lack of understanding about the eventual scope of the project helped, but so did getting into it without a lot of preconceived notions of where it should go.
sAbakumoff 9y ago
yes, indeed all the techies are the same and consistently think they know better. Keep labeling people, MR. Finance-Constructor, it's the sure way to the success.
- dopamean 9y ago
  I'm not sure that's what I said at all but I'm sorry if that is what was communicated. It was not my intention.
trhway 9y ago
the other side of the same coin is fresh perspective and unbiased application of engineering approach to any problem which results in disruption when it works. Sometimes it doesn't work, e.g. Theranos and others. Money made when it works keeps everybody as believers in that "church of disruption".
- nine_k 9y ago
  What? Wasn't Theranos a scam from the start?
projectramo 9y ago
This is true of many groups: bankers, consultants, doctors, PhDs, and journalists. Or maybe, it is true of people who choose to comment. People who believe they don't know much about a subject may choose to remain silent on the matter.
bhnmmhmd 9y ago
Well, the "techies" often have better insights about the technical parts of a product and tend to prefer code over business-politics. Code is pure, while business tends to get nasty and diabolical at times. Also, "code" self-proves its value, "business" simply doesn't. Let's not forget the people who started this whole personal-computer revolution were hippies, geeks, techies, and nerds who cared about the "code" and how this could make "peoples' lives" better.
eldavido 9y ago
Yeah I agree. There's also a general proclivity to discount boring, but effective solutions to problems. I'm writing a hotel property management system right now for a hotel chain. In its first year, it will move more money than most startups will make in their lifetimes. Somehow, that isn't "cool", though.
- jslampe 9y ago
  See: craigslist
- nine_k 9y ago
  You know, a bishop is stronger than a pawn, but a bishop never can became a queen, while a pawn has a slim but real chance. Hence be the boring bishops and exciting pawns paradox.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

camhenlin 9y ago

Seasoned programmers who have worked on software across several industries are probably pretty good at understanding and translating day to day business tasks into automated code. To do that you almost have to understand a business inside and out. That's their job. If more people were humble, less would get done

dopamean 9y ago
That make's plenty of sense but I have a hard time believing that so many of the commenters here have the experience you just described. I know it is certainly not true of the people I interact with offline on a regular basis. Also, I'm not sure I really buy the argument that because you can automate some "day to day business tasks" means you know better about how a business should be run. Automating a process that already exists is not the same as deciding which processes need to exist and which don't. Certainly, there are people who can both but I'd be lying if I said any significant number of engineers I know could really do both.
- nine_k 9y ago
  Humble is opposite to arrogant, not to decisive or knowledgeable. See also: Dunning-Kruger effect.
- GFischer 9y ago
  Honestly, I've seen so many truly awful managers that I'd trust that the engineers "know better about how a business should be run"... from an operational standpoint. However, there's the magical "sales" and "public relations" side which those same awful (operationally) managers usually excel at. When those managers have a strong CIO or operations guy by their side they're a killing team, but I've seen cases where they get sweet-talked by an atrocious ignorant CIO (and they can't see it because they're not knowledgeable themselves). I've also seen strong, well rounded CEOs... and many were engineers transitioned to management roles (with MBAs, etc).

tlogan 9y ago

No - it is just about age. HN readers are younger thus they think they know more. Old people will just say: "I don't know about that" [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvT_gqs5ETk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvT_gqs5ETk

smcl 9y ago
I would've thought it's more that HN'ers tend to have first or second hand experience tech boom/busts, and each subsequent sky-high validation brings back memories and feelings that are hard to ignore
pen2l 9y ago
HN commenters, the more visible ones, are not that young (by young I presume you mean anywhere in the 20s). https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders I think the median age in the top 10, for example, is around 40.
fsociety 9y ago
I work with quite a few "old people" who will happily explain everything to you in the most definitive manner possible.
dfrey 9y ago
This reminded me of a chunk from an [interview with Linus Torvalds](http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/linux-at-25-qa-with-linus-torvalds http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/linux-at-25-qa-w...) Stephen Cass: You’re a much more experienced programmer now versus 25 years ago. What’s one thing you know now that you wish your younger self knew? Linus Torvalds: Actually, I credit the fact that I didn’t know what the hell I was setting myself up for for a lot of the success of Linux. If I had known what I know today when I started, I would never have had the chutzpah to start writing my own operating system: You need a certain amount of naïveté to think that you can do it. I really think that was needed for the project to get started and to succeed. The lack of understanding about the eventual scope of the project helped, but so did getting into it without a lot of preconceived notions of where it should go.

sAbakumoff 9y ago

yes, indeed all the techies are the same and consistently think they know better. Keep labeling people, MR. Finance-Constructor, it's the sure way to the success.

dopamean 9y ago
I'm not sure that's what I said at all but I'm sorry if that is what was communicated. It was not my intention.

trhway 9y ago

the other side of the same coin is fresh perspective and unbiased application of engineering approach to any problem which results in disruption when it works. Sometimes it doesn't work, e.g. Theranos and others. Money made when it works keeps everybody as believers in that "church of disruption".

nine_k 9y ago
What? Wasn't Theranos a scam from the start?

projectramo 9y ago

This is true of many groups: bankers, consultants, doctors, PhDs, and journalists. Or maybe, it is true of people who choose to comment. People who believe they don't know much about a subject may choose to remain silent on the matter.

bhnmmhmd 9y ago

Well, the "techies" often have better insights about the technical parts of a product and tend to prefer code over business-politics. Code is pure, while business tends to get nasty and diabolical at times. Also, "code" self-proves its value, "business" simply doesn't. Let's not forget the people who started this whole personal-computer revolution were hippies, geeks, techies, and nerds who cared about the "code" and how this could make "peoples' lives" better.

eldavido 9y ago

Yeah I agree. There's also a general proclivity to discount boring, but effective solutions to problems. I'm writing a hotel property management system right now for a hotel chain. In its first year, it will move more money than most startups will make in their lifetimes. Somehow, that isn't "cool", though.

jslampe 9y ago
See: craigslist
nine_k 9y ago
You know, a bishop is stronger than a pawn, but a bishop never can became a queen, while a pawn has a slim but real chance. Hence be the boring bishops and exciting pawns paradox.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]