6 ms·

Employees Line Up to Get Microchipped in Wisconsin

37 points by menzoic 9y ago

xemoka 9y ago
This story, or similar, has been posted multiple times over the last few days. The most active discussion is from this post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14836390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14836390
Shivetya 9y ago
Voluntary, perhaps with a kick back for testing? Then maybe. Though I myself would not sign up for such until the regulations are in place governing privacy and such; even to the point of determining who is chipped and who is not. At this moment, I am not quite sure how I feel about living in a world where we are chipped. Maybe it is a generational thing
- therealidiot 9y ago
  If this kind of thing became mandatory I think I'd legitimately consider ending it, however as an optional (so long as it stays this way) thing it's kinda cool I guess. I did have a question about the type of chips available, but I was too late for the last post about this. Perhaps someone with more knowledge could enlighten me? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14842144 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14842144
- s73ver 9y ago
  No. "Voluntary" quickly has a way of becoming the de facto mandatory.
  - rm_-rf_slash 9y ago
    Voluntary team lunches, voluntary employee weekend retreats, voluntary work after hours off the clock...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Lagged2Death 9y ago
"...there is no GPS tracking ability to it. It is really the same thing as the chip that is in your credit card." I had an RFID credit card years ago, but that turned out to be really insecure[1], and the issuer discontinued the program. The contact-based chips in modern cards are not the same. At all. I wonder what would happen if some miscreant super-glued a few dozen RFID chips to the reader, or to a location close to the reader? [1] http://hackaday.com/2013/11/03/rfid-reader-snoops-cards-from-3-feet-away/ http://hackaday.com/2013/11/03/rfid-reader-snoops-cards-from...
supermatt 9y ago
Im not sure about the advantage of an implant vs wearing a ring in these cases. Anyone care to enlighten me?
- reefoctopus 9y ago
  You can't give your implant to someone else very easily.
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    Is the implementation well vetted? I sort of default to expecting implementation flaws and eventual cloning.
    - Sleeep 9y ago
      This isn't new tech - RFID is an extremely common and well vetted implementation for physical security. This only replaces the fobs you have to carry with you (usually key fob or credit card sized fob) with a microscopic one under your skin. Every single office I've ever worked at (5) use RFID keys for facility access. Some RFID implementations are vulnerable to cloning and other attacks (brute force, IIRC). There isn't any information about the implementation given here other than "RFID" and some implementations are much more secure than others. There's attack demonstrations on some RFID access implementations on YouTube - some more viable than others.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  You can steal or forget a ring, and rings can be uncomfortable for some people.
- Sleeep 9y ago
  A key fob (a current implementation) is a better than a ring. You probably already have to have your keys to leave the house (lock door, start car) so it's not another thing to remember. Key fobs are a single standard size and keyfobs don't get tight when you get pregnant or fat. Key fobs aren't uncomfortable, don't give you allergic retractions, and aren't a potential safety hazard like rings are for many "hands on" jobs, and also don't impact hand hygiene. The benefits of an implant are you, can't forget your implant, you can't lose it, it can't be stolen, and you can't give it to someone else. You also (probably?) can't break an implant.
weavie 9y ago
I remember back when I was a kid it was often talked about in certain circles that the mark of the beast that is discussed in the Book of Revalations of the Bible would be a microchip planted in the back of your palm. The Book talks about how those who fail to get the mark will be outcast and unable to function in society. So it was said (in these circles) that it is likely these chips will be used as a kind of credid card, and without one you will not be able to conduct any financial transactions such as buy food etc.. It is the start of the end times!
- LeifCarrotson 9y ago
  Governments and societies have been trying to give their citizens identification since long before John was writing. It's been the Last Days since about AD 0096. I remember also that Social Security cards are the start of the Mark of the Beast as well. This is why we don't have photographs on our most common form of federal identification.
- dmm 9y ago
  It's actually illegal in several states, including Wisconsin, for employers to require employees to get microchip implants. The motivation for these laws is exactly the scenario you've described.
  - AliAdams 9y ago
    Replace the 'actually' with 'currently'
    - dmm 9y ago
      Why do you think that substitution is a good idea?
- ada1981 9y ago
  " He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." I'm surprised with the generally conservative Christian population in WI that more people aren't actively against this in their community.
narrator 9y ago
So when you switch jobs you have to get surgery to get the device removed? I guess people will have to never switch jobs then. Sounds like a way to keep people from quitting a bad employer.
- michaelmior 9y ago
  I don't see why you would have to get the chip removed. Access to company services could just be disabled.
  - paulvs 9y ago
    Switching jobs would incur a slight penalty of 1) removing chip, b) re-programming chip, c) leaving chip. I think this is something a lot of people would like to avoid.
    - michaelmior 9y ago
      My guess is that there would be no need to remove or reprogram. I assume the chip simply presents a unique identifier and nothing more. The old company could just remove access based on the identifier and in a similar way, the new company could grant access using the existing chip.
- Sleeep 9y ago
  It's a couple minute procedure likened to removing a splinter. Also, you don't really have to get it removed if you don't want to, it can be inactivated without your involvement.
jressey 9y ago
> What if you get robbed? > Like everything in life, it could happen. > But, says Mr Danna, at least it is all in one place, making it easier to cancel all those cards. Are they implying you might get your hand chopped off but at least it's easy to cancel your credit card?
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  Yeah, I think these would be useful, but not as a single chip in your finger. You'd want a more distributed solution; a memory chip holding your key somewhere like your shoulder, a crypto chip to generate the nonce in a knee, some nodes to emit EMI along the transdermal conduits to prevent eavesdropping and to act as decoys, that sort of thing. That way, the transmitter could be in your finger, but it would be useless on its own. They would need to dismember you to get at the full solution, which would also be fragile to keep intact if anyone tried to remove while maintaining its functionality. Individual parts could also have failsafes to fry the whole system if exposed to atmosphere. And at that point, unlike chopping off a hand, it'd be so much easier for a criminal to pull a gun on their mark and walk them to an ATM. Come to think of it, a bodywide transdermal net would be pretty cool, if you included junctions for adding arbitrary modules to a common pin footprint. It would probably be difficult to install, but I dunno... people have put some crazy things in their skin, like a phone-sized single-board computer.
  - JetSpiegel 9y ago
    > They would need to dismember you to get at the full solution Great, so thieves that are already amoral enough to chop off your hand will have to kill you instead! Progress!
c3534l 9y ago
If it's no different than an ID card, I think I'd rather have the card.
shmerl 9y ago
Cyborgs on the rise? Imagine the copyright / DRM mess that will ensue, once this will become way more invasive? It will be literally like "we own you now!".
Someone 9y ago
So, what happens with these things if you get an MRI? The chip may get fried, but that's not my main concern. Does it attempt to move through your body? Will it succeed at doing that?
- Sleeep 9y ago
  They are supposed to be safe for MRIs. Kari Byron got an MRI with one implanted on Mythbusters for demonstration. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDq_LBH_ZYs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDq_LBH_ZYs
- Herodotus38 9y ago
  As long as it doesn't contain any ferromagnetic materials it should be safe for the person.
lrvick 9y ago
I have to admit I find it pretty amusing this is news. About a dozen friends and I have had these for 4+ years, voluntarily. I no longer carry any traditional metal keys and have modified my front door, vehicles, etc to open via my implants. Friends even upgraded 2 vending machines at our hackerspace to work with them. In addition to access, I use one to store master encrypted backups of files I might need access to in a pinch and the other I tell everyone contains a vcard with my contact info, but really it just auto-launches rickroll on their phone when they tap it. The tags are all r/w and I can update them as I like from my smartphone. In a couple weeks I am getting a temperature sensor installed under my arm designed for animals. While temperature is not a super exciting sensor, it paves the way for more complicated ones in the future and I can see how it holds up over time. My next after that is an HID ATA5577 tag that I can use to clone the HID door cards of most offices. Once beta units begin to be produced I plan on getting a Vivokey installed which covers the typical use cases of a Yubikey and will allow me to do 2FA, ssh, password management, and cryptocurrency transactions from my body as well.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  How do you get a chip big enough to store large documents into yourself? An integrated temperature sensor sounds awesome, especially for a hypochondriac like me.
orblivion 9y ago
FSF better get on this sooner rather than later. I don't know how many of us would really have so much to complain about if these chips were truly, 100% under our own control.

37 points by menzoic 9y ago

This story, or similar, has been posted multiple times over the last few days. The most active discussion is from this post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14836390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14836390

Shivetya 9y ago

Voluntary, perhaps with a kick back for testing? Then maybe. Though I myself would not sign up for such until the regulations are in place governing privacy and such; even to the point of determining who is chipped and who is not. At this moment, I am not quite sure how I feel about living in a world where we are chipped. Maybe it is a generational thing

therealidiot 9y ago
If this kind of thing became mandatory I think I'd legitimately consider ending it, however as an optional (so long as it stays this way) thing it's kinda cool I guess. I did have a question about the type of chips available, but I was too late for the last post about this. Perhaps someone with more knowledge could enlighten me? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14842144 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14842144
s73ver 9y ago
No. "Voluntary" quickly has a way of becoming the de facto mandatory.
- rm_-rf_slash 9y ago
  Voluntary team lunches, voluntary employee weekend retreats, voluntary work after hours off the clock...

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Lagged2Death 9y ago

"...there is no GPS tracking ability to it. It is really the same thing as the chip that is in your credit card." I had an RFID credit card years ago, but that turned out to be really insecure[1], and the issuer discontinued the program. The contact-based chips in modern cards are not the same. At all. I wonder what would happen if some miscreant super-glued a few dozen RFID chips to the reader, or to a location close to the reader? [1] http://hackaday.com/2013/11/03/rfid-reader-snoops-cards-from-3-feet-away/ http://hackaday.com/2013/11/03/rfid-reader-snoops-cards-from...

supermatt 9y ago

Im not sure about the advantage of an implant vs wearing a ring in these cases. Anyone care to enlighten me?

reefoctopus 9y ago
You can't give your implant to someone else very easily.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  Is the implementation well vetted? I sort of default to expecting implementation flaws and eventual cloning.
  - Sleeep 9y ago
    This isn't new tech - RFID is an extremely common and well vetted implementation for physical security. This only replaces the fobs you have to carry with you (usually key fob or credit card sized fob) with a microscopic one under your skin. Every single office I've ever worked at (5) use RFID keys for facility access. Some RFID implementations are vulnerable to cloning and other attacks (brute force, IIRC). There isn't any information about the implementation given here other than "RFID" and some implementations are much more secure than others. There's attack demonstrations on some RFID access implementations on YouTube - some more viable than others.
pavel_lishin 9y ago
You can steal or forget a ring, and rings can be uncomfortable for some people.
Sleeep 9y ago
A key fob (a current implementation) is a better than a ring. You probably already have to have your keys to leave the house (lock door, start car) so it's not another thing to remember. Key fobs are a single standard size and keyfobs don't get tight when you get pregnant or fat. Key fobs aren't uncomfortable, don't give you allergic retractions, and aren't a potential safety hazard like rings are for many "hands on" jobs, and also don't impact hand hygiene. The benefits of an implant are you, can't forget your implant, you can't lose it, it can't be stolen, and you can't give it to someone else. You also (probably?) can't break an implant.

weavie 9y ago

I remember back when I was a kid it was often talked about in certain circles that the mark of the beast that is discussed in the Book of Revalations of the Bible would be a microchip planted in the back of your palm. The Book talks about how those who fail to get the mark will be outcast and unable to function in society. So it was said (in these circles) that it is likely these chips will be used as a kind of credid card, and without one you will not be able to conduct any financial transactions such as buy food etc.. It is the start of the end times!

LeifCarrotson 9y ago
Governments and societies have been trying to give their citizens identification since long before John was writing. It's been the Last Days since about AD 0096. I remember also that Social Security cards are the start of the Mark of the Beast as well. This is why we don't have photographs on our most common form of federal identification.
dmm 9y ago
It's actually illegal in several states, including Wisconsin, for employers to require employees to get microchip implants. The motivation for these laws is exactly the scenario you've described.
- AliAdams 9y ago
  Replace the 'actually' with 'currently'
  - dmm 9y ago
    Why do you think that substitution is a good idea?
ada1981 9y ago
" He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." I'm surprised with the generally conservative Christian population in WI that more people aren't actively against this in their community.

narrator 9y ago

So when you switch jobs you have to get surgery to get the device removed? I guess people will have to never switch jobs then. Sounds like a way to keep people from quitting a bad employer.

michaelmior 9y ago
I don't see why you would have to get the chip removed. Access to company services could just be disabled.
- paulvs 9y ago
  Switching jobs would incur a slight penalty of 1) removing chip, b) re-programming chip, c) leaving chip. I think this is something a lot of people would like to avoid.
  - michaelmior 9y ago
    My guess is that there would be no need to remove or reprogram. I assume the chip simply presents a unique identifier and nothing more. The old company could just remove access based on the identifier and in a similar way, the new company could grant access using the existing chip.
Sleeep 9y ago
It's a couple minute procedure likened to removing a splinter. Also, you don't really have to get it removed if you don't want to, it can be inactivated without your involvement.

jressey 9y ago

> What if you get robbed? > Like everything in life, it could happen. > But, says Mr Danna, at least it is all in one place, making it easier to cancel all those cards. Are they implying you might get your hand chopped off but at least it's easy to cancel your credit card?

leggomylibro 9y ago
Yeah, I think these would be useful, but not as a single chip in your finger. You'd want a more distributed solution; a memory chip holding your key somewhere like your shoulder, a crypto chip to generate the nonce in a knee, some nodes to emit EMI along the transdermal conduits to prevent eavesdropping and to act as decoys, that sort of thing. That way, the transmitter could be in your finger, but it would be useless on its own. They would need to dismember you to get at the full solution, which would also be fragile to keep intact if anyone tried to remove while maintaining its functionality. Individual parts could also have failsafes to fry the whole system if exposed to atmosphere. And at that point, unlike chopping off a hand, it'd be so much easier for a criminal to pull a gun on their mark and walk them to an ATM. Come to think of it, a bodywide transdermal net would be pretty cool, if you included junctions for adding arbitrary modules to a common pin footprint. It would probably be difficult to install, but I dunno... people have put some crazy things in their skin, like a phone-sized single-board computer.
- JetSpiegel 9y ago
  > They would need to dismember you to get at the full solution Great, so thieves that are already amoral enough to chop off your hand will have to kill you instead! Progress!

c3534l 9y ago

If it's no different than an ID card, I think I'd rather have the card.

shmerl 9y ago

Cyborgs on the rise? Imagine the copyright / DRM mess that will ensue, once this will become way more invasive? It will be literally like "we own you now!".

Someone 9y ago

So, what happens with these things if you get an MRI? The chip may get fried, but that's not my main concern. Does it attempt to move through your body? Will it succeed at doing that?

Sleeep 9y ago
They are supposed to be safe for MRIs. Kari Byron got an MRI with one implanted on Mythbusters for demonstration. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDq_LBH_ZYs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDq_LBH_ZYs
Herodotus38 9y ago
As long as it doesn't contain any ferromagnetic materials it should be safe for the person.

lrvick 9y ago

I have to admit I find it pretty amusing this is news. About a dozen friends and I have had these for 4+ years, voluntarily. I no longer carry any traditional metal keys and have modified my front door, vehicles, etc to open via my implants. Friends even upgraded 2 vending machines at our hackerspace to work with them. In addition to access, I use one to store master encrypted backups of files I might need access to in a pinch and the other I tell everyone contains a vcard with my contact info, but really it just auto-launches rickroll on their phone when they tap it. The tags are all r/w and I can update them as I like from my smartphone. In a couple weeks I am getting a temperature sensor installed under my arm designed for animals. While temperature is not a super exciting sensor, it paves the way for more complicated ones in the future and I can see how it holds up over time. My next after that is an HID ATA5577 tag that I can use to clone the HID door cards of most offices. Once beta units begin to be produced I plan on getting a Vivokey installed which covers the typical use cases of a Yubikey and will allow me to do 2FA, ssh, password management, and cryptocurrency transactions from my body as well.

pavel_lishin 9y ago
How do you get a chip big enough to store large documents into yourself? An integrated temperature sensor sounds awesome, especially for a hypochondriac like me.

orblivion 9y ago

FSF better get on this sooner rather than later. I don't know how many of us would really have so much to complain about if these chips were truly, 100% under our own control.