8 ms·

Completely agree. Rape will land you jail for a long time (as it should) but rape hoaxing has almost no consequences.

vkou 9y ago
Let's suppose that false rape accusations are a wide-spread problem. They aren't, they are far rarer then actual cases of rape, but let's suppose that they are. How exactly do you propose to deal with them, without a chilling effect on reporting real rapes? It is a crime that is notoriously hard to convict, to the point where most victims keep silent.
- aqsheehy 9y ago
  Speaking as someone with no legal specialization at all, I would assume it would only be for those cases where it could be proven that the false accusation was premeditated?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- hdhdbebbbdhdvd 9y ago
  A problem can be serious without being wide-spread, and this is a great example -- false accusations (of any crime), though rare, sow the seeds of doubt in the testimony of every accuser. Every widely publicized false accusation (Duke lacrosse rape, etc) causes hundreds or perhaps even thousands of real rapists to go free and rape more people, since jurors take the possibility of a false accusation as "reasonable doubt." As with any crime, the evidentiary standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" -- to convict someone for false testimony, you would need to conclusively prove that they did so willfully. This is already the law, the crime is called perjury -- it's just that the punishments are so mild that they are not serious deterrents. Imagine if making willfully false allegations of a crime was punished by twice the prison sentence of the crime being accused -- I bet one VC wouldn't try to poke another in the eye with a false sexual harassment blog post.
  - vkou 9y ago
    > A problem can be serious without being wide-spread Rape and sexual harassment are problems that are both serious, and incredibly wide-spread. They are also under-reported and under-prosecuted, and even when they are, well, that young gentleman is such a good athlete, and has such a bright future, we can't destroy his life over something minor like that. You could also bet that actual rape victims would not come forward. Why the would they, if they could end up in jail, if the case against their rapist falls apart for any one of a million reasons.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - devnonymous 9y ago
      >> A problem can be serious without being wide-spread > Rape and sexual harassment are problems that are both serious, and incredibly wide-spread Are you being intentionally obtuse or just didn't read the comment before replying? Giving you the benefit of doubt in case you were wondering about the down votes, the parent was talking about false claims of rape/harassment being less widespread.
    - int_19h 9y ago
      > You could also bet that actual rape victims would not come forward. Why the would they, if they could end up in jail, if the case against their rapist falls apart for any one of a million reasons. OP was saying that you should go to jail if you manufacture a rape accusation, and that is proven to the usual standards of the criminal trial (i.e. "beyond a reasonable doubt"), not if the case against rapist falls apart for any random reason.
    - hdhdbebbbdhdvd 9y ago
      Yes, rape and sexual harassment are serious problems, and false accusations of these crimes, in particular, where forensic evidence is rare, literally increases the number of rapes by allowing rapists to avoid jail.
  - Melchizedek 9y ago
- Pica_soO 9y ago
  If you accuse somebody of a crime s/he didnt commit- and it comes out, you should suffer the same sentence - circumstances of the person you accused would have received as sentence.
  - jpttsn 9y ago
    Sounds like eye-for-an-eye logic. Why the same? Also, just for rape, or for any crime? If I falsely accuse the President of treason, and he is found innocent, should I be convicted of treason?
    - int_19h 9y ago
      There is some logic to it, in a sense that, the more serious the false accusation, the higher the potential damage to the victim - so penalty must also be proportionally higher. (Note that it didn't say "same crime", only "same sentence".)
      - jpttsn 9y ago
        It's clear to me that/why people want punishment to be more severe, and proportional to the seriousness. Perhaps I'm being too literal and the call for "same sentence" is just for effect.
    - xor1 9y ago
      False accusers are harming real victims, too. >If I falsely accuse the President of treason, and he is found innocent, should I be convicted of treason? Please go into detail in regards to how this hypothetical scenario would unfold. I can't wait to hear your explanation for how some random person accusing the President of treason could possibly lead to any sort of trial.
      - jpttsn 9y ago
        I really can't tell what you want me to explain or what your point is, but I'd love to help.
    - 9y ago
- peoplewindow 9y ago
  > They aren't, they are far rarer then actual cases of rape This is not a statement of fact, that's an assumption you've made. Actual studies of this are rare and usually bitterly disputed, but part of the reason they're rare is that they tend to reveal alarmingly high false reporting rates. I mean truly disturbingly high. If you look at cases which are proven to be false, the rate is usually suggested to be somewhere between 5% and 10% of all claims depending on the study. But this does not imply 90% of accusations have merit. The definition of "false claim" is extremely strict, such that a case that does not proceed because e.g. the alleged victim is caught lying about the events does not count as "false" on the grounds that they might just genuinely be confused. Virtually all claims of rape or sexual assault fail to proceed to actual charges. The most famous study (by Kanin) examined every single allegation of rape reported to the police department of a small midwestern city. It defined a false accusation to be "any accusation in which the victim admitted it was false". It reported a rate of around 40% of all allegations being false. > It is a crime that is notoriously hard to convict, to the point where most victims keep silent. You can't know that. Given that false reporting definitely occurs, victims that keep silent may or may not be real victims. Only investigations can resolve that question. And one reason it's a hard crime to convict is the rate at which accusers recant their accusations or stop cooperating with investigations as they proceed.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    > The most famous study (by Kanin)[..] And that study is deeply flawed: that one small midwestern police department used polygraphs on accusers. That's a practice that has long been shunned because (a) polygraphs are (now) known to usually find the investigator's opinion reflected in statistical noise, and (b) the victims (rightfully) see the test as an accusation and prefer to recant for fear of prosecution. The study mostly used the investigator's judgement, and used the victims admission only when it that was given. Question: if you go to 100 actual false accusers ten years after that incident, and ask them "Did you falsely accuse X of rape back then?". Do you really believe that 40% would be stupid enough to tell you?
    - peoplewindow 9y ago
- jbmorgado 9y ago
  > "Let's suppose that false rape accusations are a wide-spread problem. They aren't, they are far rarer then actual cases of rape, but let's suppose that they are." Can you provide a source for that?
  - matt4077 9y ago
    This is the most detailed and recent study, where they went through all rape cases in the UK with a fine comb. It puts the most likely figure of false accusations at 3%, within a range of 1% to 9%. Other numbers: - 7% (of all women) had been raped, - Around 75% of those cases were reported to police - only 14% of cases resulted in a trial - less than half of trials resulted in conviction - Police officers guess that 30% of reported rapes are false accusations when asked in general terms, even though these same officers came to such a conclusion in only 9% of specific cases they handled. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218141141/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hors293.pdf http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218141141/htt...
    - jbmorgado 9y ago
      Excuse me, how do you know that 7% of all woman are raped if only 14% of those cases go to trial and if only 50% of those cases result in conviction? The only real data that you provided is that 5.25% of all claimed rapes (1 x 75% x 14% x 50%) are actually proven to be true in a court of law, which means that the only real data you have is that, according to justice only 0.37% of all woman have been found victims of rape. You know absolutely nothing about of what are the real numbers, just that the lower limit is those 0.37%, yet you claim that 7% of all woman have been raped, based on exactly what? Do you have access to some data that we don't (and that isn't present in the numbers you just provided)? If so, what data is that?
- swiley 9y ago
  This is anecdotal, but personally I know just as many people who where raped as where falsely accused of rape.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    zero? In any case, it'd be quite strange to personally know two cases where such a false accusation was proven, considering how rare both false accusations are, and how difficult it is to prove them. You data would furthermore suffer from the fact that almost no one will tell you they were raped, whereas accusations of rape and a trial are usually widely known.
flukus 9y ago
I think you mean penalties and not consequences? Because rape hoaxing has some very real, career/company destroying consequences.

vkou 9y ago

Let's suppose that false rape accusations are a wide-spread problem. They aren't, they are far rarer then actual cases of rape, but let's suppose that they are. How exactly do you propose to deal with them, without a chilling effect on reporting real rapes? It is a crime that is notoriously hard to convict, to the point where most victims keep silent.

aqsheehy 9y ago
Speaking as someone with no legal specialization at all, I would assume it would only be for those cases where it could be proven that the false accusation was premeditated?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
hdhdbebbbdhdvd 9y ago
A problem can be serious without being wide-spread, and this is a great example -- false accusations (of any crime), though rare, sow the seeds of doubt in the testimony of every accuser. Every widely publicized false accusation (Duke lacrosse rape, etc) causes hundreds or perhaps even thousands of real rapists to go free and rape more people, since jurors take the possibility of a false accusation as "reasonable doubt." As with any crime, the evidentiary standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" -- to convict someone for false testimony, you would need to conclusively prove that they did so willfully. This is already the law, the crime is called perjury -- it's just that the punishments are so mild that they are not serious deterrents. Imagine if making willfully false allegations of a crime was punished by twice the prison sentence of the crime being accused -- I bet one VC wouldn't try to poke another in the eye with a false sexual harassment blog post.
- vkou 9y ago
  > A problem can be serious without being wide-spread Rape and sexual harassment are problems that are both serious, and incredibly wide-spread. They are also under-reported and under-prosecuted, and even when they are, well, that young gentleman is such a good athlete, and has such a bright future, we can't destroy his life over something minor like that. You could also bet that actual rape victims would not come forward. Why the would they, if they could end up in jail, if the case against their rapist falls apart for any one of a million reasons.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - devnonymous 9y ago
    >> A problem can be serious without being wide-spread > Rape and sexual harassment are problems that are both serious, and incredibly wide-spread Are you being intentionally obtuse or just didn't read the comment before replying? Giving you the benefit of doubt in case you were wondering about the down votes, the parent was talking about false claims of rape/harassment being less widespread.
  - int_19h 9y ago
    > You could also bet that actual rape victims would not come forward. Why the would they, if they could end up in jail, if the case against their rapist falls apart for any one of a million reasons. OP was saying that you should go to jail if you manufacture a rape accusation, and that is proven to the usual standards of the criminal trial (i.e. "beyond a reasonable doubt"), not if the case against rapist falls apart for any random reason.
  - hdhdbebbbdhdvd 9y ago
    Yes, rape and sexual harassment are serious problems, and false accusations of these crimes, in particular, where forensic evidence is rare, literally increases the number of rapes by allowing rapists to avoid jail.
- Melchizedek 9y ago
Pica_soO 9y ago
If you accuse somebody of a crime s/he didnt commit- and it comes out, you should suffer the same sentence - circumstances of the person you accused would have received as sentence.
- jpttsn 9y ago
  Sounds like eye-for-an-eye logic. Why the same? Also, just for rape, or for any crime? If I falsely accuse the President of treason, and he is found innocent, should I be convicted of treason?
  - int_19h 9y ago
    There is some logic to it, in a sense that, the more serious the false accusation, the higher the potential damage to the victim - so penalty must also be proportionally higher. (Note that it didn't say "same crime", only "same sentence".)
    - jpttsn 9y ago
      It's clear to me that/why people want punishment to be more severe, and proportional to the seriousness. Perhaps I'm being too literal and the call for "same sentence" is just for effect.
  - xor1 9y ago
    False accusers are harming real victims, too. >If I falsely accuse the President of treason, and he is found innocent, should I be convicted of treason? Please go into detail in regards to how this hypothetical scenario would unfold. I can't wait to hear your explanation for how some random person accusing the President of treason could possibly lead to any sort of trial.
    - jpttsn 9y ago
      I really can't tell what you want me to explain or what your point is, but I'd love to help.
  - 9y ago
peoplewindow 9y ago
> They aren't, they are far rarer then actual cases of rape This is not a statement of fact, that's an assumption you've made. Actual studies of this are rare and usually bitterly disputed, but part of the reason they're rare is that they tend to reveal alarmingly high false reporting rates. I mean truly disturbingly high. If you look at cases which are proven to be false, the rate is usually suggested to be somewhere between 5% and 10% of all claims depending on the study. But this does not imply 90% of accusations have merit. The definition of "false claim" is extremely strict, such that a case that does not proceed because e.g. the alleged victim is caught lying about the events does not count as "false" on the grounds that they might just genuinely be confused. Virtually all claims of rape or sexual assault fail to proceed to actual charges. The most famous study (by Kanin) examined every single allegation of rape reported to the police department of a small midwestern city. It defined a false accusation to be "any accusation in which the victim admitted it was false". It reported a rate of around 40% of all allegations being false. > It is a crime that is notoriously hard to convict, to the point where most victims keep silent. You can't know that. Given that false reporting definitely occurs, victims that keep silent may or may not be real victims. Only investigations can resolve that question. And one reason it's a hard crime to convict is the rate at which accusers recant their accusations or stop cooperating with investigations as they proceed.
- matt4077 9y ago
  > The most famous study (by Kanin)[..] And that study is deeply flawed: that one small midwestern police department used polygraphs on accusers. That's a practice that has long been shunned because (a) polygraphs are (now) known to usually find the investigator's opinion reflected in statistical noise, and (b) the victims (rightfully) see the test as an accusation and prefer to recant for fear of prosecution. The study mostly used the investigator's judgement, and used the victims admission only when it that was given. Question: if you go to 100 actual false accusers ten years after that incident, and ask them "Did you falsely accuse X of rape back then?". Do you really believe that 40% would be stupid enough to tell you?
  - peoplewindow 9y ago
jbmorgado 9y ago
> "Let's suppose that false rape accusations are a wide-spread problem. They aren't, they are far rarer then actual cases of rape, but let's suppose that they are." Can you provide a source for that?
- matt4077 9y ago
  This is the most detailed and recent study, where they went through all rape cases in the UK with a fine comb. It puts the most likely figure of false accusations at 3%, within a range of 1% to 9%. Other numbers: - 7% (of all women) had been raped, - Around 75% of those cases were reported to police - only 14% of cases resulted in a trial - less than half of trials resulted in conviction - Police officers guess that 30% of reported rapes are false accusations when asked in general terms, even though these same officers came to such a conclusion in only 9% of specific cases they handled. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218141141/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hors293.pdf http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218141141/htt...
  - jbmorgado 9y ago
    Excuse me, how do you know that 7% of all woman are raped if only 14% of those cases go to trial and if only 50% of those cases result in conviction? The only real data that you provided is that 5.25% of all claimed rapes (1 x 75% x 14% x 50%) are actually proven to be true in a court of law, which means that the only real data you have is that, according to justice only 0.37% of all woman have been found victims of rape. You know absolutely nothing about of what are the real numbers, just that the lower limit is those 0.37%, yet you claim that 7% of all woman have been raped, based on exactly what? Do you have access to some data that we don't (and that isn't present in the numbers you just provided)? If so, what data is that?
swiley 9y ago
This is anecdotal, but personally I know just as many people who where raped as where falsely accused of rape.
- matt4077 9y ago
  zero? In any case, it'd be quite strange to personally know two cases where such a false accusation was proven, considering how rare both false accusations are, and how difficult it is to prove them. You data would furthermore suffer from the fact that almost no one will tell you they were raped, whereas accusations of rape and a trial are usually widely known.

flukus 9y ago

I think you mean penalties and not consequences? Because rape hoaxing has some very real, career/company destroying consequences.