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People are going to make bad investments, no matter how much the SEC restricts. There are a huge number of non-securities investments available, and people pour

People are going to make bad investments, no matter how much the SEC restricts. There are a huge number of non-securities investments available, and people pour huge amounts of money in them. A government is never going to be able to protect individuals from their own bad judgment. All these regulations do is drive up the cost of directly accessing public capital markets (at last count, $6 million to do an IPO), and contribute to growing income disparity [1]. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/research/make-elites-compete-why-the-1-earn-so-much-and-what-to-do-about-it/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/make-elites-compete-why-t...

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> All these regulations do is drive up the cost of directly accessing public capital markets (at last count, $6 million to do an IPO), and contribute to growing income disparity There's a fair argument in weighing the upsides and the downsides of registration requirements. But saying the downsides are "all these regulations do" is intellectually dishonest. Lots of scams get stopped, or at least quarantined, by these regulations. The speed with which the ICO market went from zero to bullshit only seems to re-inforce the prudence of these rules. > $6 million to do an IPO Having watched private companies spend much more than that to raise private capital, I think it's safe to say filing fees aren't the primary problem the public markets have.
- Jabanga 9y ago
  It's not intellectually dishonest, because I'm commenting on the net effect. If people are getting scammed just as much, but from other sources, then "all they do" is the net effect on the negative side. But fair enough: if you constrain this new internet sector, then you could conceivably reduce scams, just by virtue of forcing people into higher-friction areas of the economy, where less can practically be transacted. I'm sure Cuba has pretty low scam volumes by the same virtue. >Having watched private companies spend much more than that to raise private capital, I think it's safe to say filing fees aren't the primary problem the public markets have. Many private companies spend FAR less than that to raise private capital. To claim that a $6 million fee for entry is not going to disenfranchise a huge subset of the population is intellectually dishonest.
regulation_d 9y ago
I'm not sure what a "non-securities investments" in the US securities scheme would look like. An "investment contract" is sort of the catch all category for everything that tries not to look like a security, but actually is one. If something is an investment, I can't imagine that it's not a security.
- Jabanga 9y ago
  The Howey Test defines an investment contract more narrowly than you imply. People lose absolutely staggering amounts of money each year on bad investments. Money is like water. It flows around these regulations. The detours just add friction that slows innovation, and diverts capital to fees for legal/accounting professionals.
  - regulation_d 9y ago
    > The Howey Test defines an investment contract more narrowly than you imply I mean, maybe? An investment of money, managed by somebody else, with the expectation of profits. I feel like that covers most things we would typically consider to be investments. Aside from something like, "I bought this piece of art... as an investment." Maybe I'm just missing some obvious examples?
    - Jabanga 9y ago
      Case law defines each of those points. This elaborates more on that: http://coinbase.com/legal/securities-law-framework.pdf http://coinbase.com/legal/securities-law-framework.pdf

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> All these regulations do is drive up the cost of directly accessing public capital markets (at last count, $6 million to do an IPO), and contribute to growing income disparity There's a fair argument in weighing the upsides and the downsides of registration requirements. But saying the downsides are "all these regulations do" is intellectually dishonest. Lots of scams get stopped, or at least quarantined, by these regulations. The speed with which the ICO market went from zero to bullshit only seems to re-inforce the prudence of these rules. > $6 million to do an IPO Having watched private companies spend much more than that to raise private capital, I think it's safe to say filing fees aren't the primary problem the public markets have.

Jabanga 9y ago
It's not intellectually dishonest, because I'm commenting on the net effect. If people are getting scammed just as much, but from other sources, then "all they do" is the net effect on the negative side. But fair enough: if you constrain this new internet sector, then you could conceivably reduce scams, just by virtue of forcing people into higher-friction areas of the economy, where less can practically be transacted. I'm sure Cuba has pretty low scam volumes by the same virtue. >Having watched private companies spend much more than that to raise private capital, I think it's safe to say filing fees aren't the primary problem the public markets have. Many private companies spend FAR less than that to raise private capital. To claim that a $6 million fee for entry is not going to disenfranchise a huge subset of the population is intellectually dishonest.

regulation_d 9y ago

I'm not sure what a "non-securities investments" in the US securities scheme would look like. An "investment contract" is sort of the catch all category for everything that tries not to look like a security, but actually is one. If something is an investment, I can't imagine that it's not a security.

Jabanga 9y ago
The Howey Test defines an investment contract more narrowly than you imply. People lose absolutely staggering amounts of money each year on bad investments. Money is like water. It flows around these regulations. The detours just add friction that slows innovation, and diverts capital to fees for legal/accounting professionals.
- regulation_d 9y ago
  > The Howey Test defines an investment contract more narrowly than you imply I mean, maybe? An investment of money, managed by somebody else, with the expectation of profits. I feel like that covers most things we would typically consider to be investments. Aside from something like, "I bought this piece of art... as an investment." Maybe I'm just missing some obvious examples?
  - Jabanga 9y ago
    Case law defines each of those points. This elaborates more on that: http://coinbase.com/legal/securities-law-framework.pdf http://coinbase.com/legal/securities-law-framework.pdf