6 ms·

The Candlemakers' Petition

39 points by dangoldin 16y ago

piguy314 16y ago
This is kind of like the theory that we need to force American firms to be less efficient to solve unemployment.
kiba 16y ago
If Bastiat was alive today, he would run circles around politicians and economists like Krugman, while at the same time being ridiculed as one of those crazed nut-case libertarian. He will also generally being unpopular. And he was unpopular and unknown in his time. I mean, this man had braved the French Revolution and risked getting his head chopped off. What he did for us is to write pretty good fables and stories teaching us a thing or two about economic fallacies. That's the whole reason why we still read him today. That what have earned him legion of fans. But, in this era and age, some of the things he said would still be seen as heresy. Breaking windows(or digging holes and filling up again) is still seen as smart by some crazy economists. The other day, I stubbornly argued against wars as stimulus on the basis that it's a broken window fallacy on hacker news. I got lot of karma points alright, but my opponent was pretty damn persistent about wars being a smart idea.
- _delirium 16y ago
  It's hardly only Krugman who's in favor of economic stimulus; most orthodox neoclassical economists believe in at least some role for fiscal stimulus, including those who lean right. For example, The Economist has generally supported some degree of stimulus programs and warned against too-quick budget reductions plunging economies back into recession, despite usually being against government intervention in the economy. Where I'll agree is that it does seem preferable for stimulus spending to actually produce something useful, preferably something infrastructural that produces long-term value, as opposed to just having people dig holes and fill them back up again. For example, the Works Progress Administration in the 1930s produced a bunch of schools, bridges, hydroelectric dams, national park trails/structures, etc., many of which we still use. That was one of the criticisms of the 2009 stimulus plan, which in the interest of short-term stimulus ended up spending a bunch of money on things without any real lasting value. E.g. instead of building $20b of high-speed rail, we spent $20b on repaving roads.
  - stretchwithme 16y ago
    The problem is that its always something that people are unwilling to pay full price for with their own money. so the actual value is somewhat unknown. But there are so many distortions and subsidies, one cannot really tell with a lot of things. One thing is certain though. When government spends money, it borrow it or take it by taxation or inflation. So it really just changes who is spending it and the desirability of the spending. Desirability drops because people spend on thing or invest in things that are of real value to them, where as government puts money where it politically popular. I hear the government is going to be giving two solar companies $2 billion that will create 2000. That's $1 million per job. And on a technology that is not all that competitive yet. But don't worry. Government knows exactly what technologies will win out. And if it doesn't, it will spend whatever is required to make it look like its winning.
    - sprout 16y ago
      Why are you so hostile to research that sees production use? The theory, which is increasingly being borne out, is that economies of scale will kick I bun if you subsidize it. But even if not, it's small-scale research, and extremely important. But politicians need a message that sells, and talking about the complexities of solar panel research and job creation that motivate this endeavor just leaves people's eyes glazed over.
      - kiba 16y ago
        Solar research will dramatically kicks in as soon as oil become too expensive. Moreover, solar productions will kick in when it become too expensive to run our economy on oils. There is no need for solar researches until then. We could use that money to spend on other research programs, such as space exploration, semiconductor research, or even water conservation research. However, we don't know which to fund. So we end up with a government that more or less redirect the path of technological development, not so much advance the overall state of technology. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
        16y ago
didtrade 16y ago
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sambeau 16y ago
Thus, Foxconn gives us half an iPhone for free?
klutometis 16y ago
"+ x + = - ... would be to heap absurdity upon absurdity." Perversely, "+ x + = -" is valid Scheme: #;1> (= (- (+) (*) (+))) #t

39 points by dangoldin 16y ago

This is kind of like the theory that we need to force American firms to be less efficient to solve unemployment.

kiba 16y ago

If Bastiat was alive today, he would run circles around politicians and economists like Krugman, while at the same time being ridiculed as one of those crazed nut-case libertarian. He will also generally being unpopular. And he was unpopular and unknown in his time. I mean, this man had braved the French Revolution and risked getting his head chopped off. What he did for us is to write pretty good fables and stories teaching us a thing or two about economic fallacies. That's the whole reason why we still read him today. That what have earned him legion of fans. But, in this era and age, some of the things he said would still be seen as heresy. Breaking windows(or digging holes and filling up again) is still seen as smart by some crazy economists. The other day, I stubbornly argued against wars as stimulus on the basis that it's a broken window fallacy on hacker news. I got lot of karma points alright, but my opponent was pretty damn persistent about wars being a smart idea.

_delirium 16y ago
It's hardly only Krugman who's in favor of economic stimulus; most orthodox neoclassical economists believe in at least some role for fiscal stimulus, including those who lean right. For example, The Economist has generally supported some degree of stimulus programs and warned against too-quick budget reductions plunging economies back into recession, despite usually being against government intervention in the economy. Where I'll agree is that it does seem preferable for stimulus spending to actually produce something useful, preferably something infrastructural that produces long-term value, as opposed to just having people dig holes and fill them back up again. For example, the Works Progress Administration in the 1930s produced a bunch of schools, bridges, hydroelectric dams, national park trails/structures, etc., many of which we still use. That was one of the criticisms of the 2009 stimulus plan, which in the interest of short-term stimulus ended up spending a bunch of money on things without any real lasting value. E.g. instead of building $20b of high-speed rail, we spent $20b on repaving roads.
- stretchwithme 16y ago
  The problem is that its always something that people are unwilling to pay full price for with their own money. so the actual value is somewhat unknown. But there are so many distortions and subsidies, one cannot really tell with a lot of things. One thing is certain though. When government spends money, it borrow it or take it by taxation or inflation. So it really just changes who is spending it and the desirability of the spending. Desirability drops because people spend on thing or invest in things that are of real value to them, where as government puts money where it politically popular. I hear the government is going to be giving two solar companies $2 billion that will create 2000. That's $1 million per job. And on a technology that is not all that competitive yet. But don't worry. Government knows exactly what technologies will win out. And if it doesn't, it will spend whatever is required to make it look like its winning.
  - sprout 16y ago
    Why are you so hostile to research that sees production use? The theory, which is increasingly being borne out, is that economies of scale will kick I bun if you subsidize it. But even if not, it's small-scale research, and extremely important. But politicians need a message that sells, and talking about the complexities of solar panel research and job creation that motivate this endeavor just leaves people's eyes glazed over.
    - kiba 16y ago
      Solar research will dramatically kicks in as soon as oil become too expensive. Moreover, solar productions will kick in when it become too expensive to run our economy on oils. There is no need for solar researches until then. We could use that money to spend on other research programs, such as space exploration, semiconductor research, or even water conservation research. However, we don't know which to fund. So we end up with a government that more or less redirect the path of technological development, not so much advance the overall state of technology. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
      - 16y ago

didtrade 16y ago

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sambeau 16y ago

Thus, Foxconn gives us half an iPhone for free?

klutometis 16y ago

"+ x + = - ... would be to heap absurdity upon absurdity." Perversely, "+ x + = -" is valid Scheme: #;1> (= (- (+) (*) (+))) #t