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I'm not sure this comment appeals to anyone. The idea that day to day programming jobs are some sort of high end intellectual challenge is a myth. I think a coa

I'm not sure this comment appeals to anyone. The idea that day to day programming jobs are some sort of high end intellectual challenge is a myth. I think a coal miner could do what I've been doing since sixth grade just fine. See: http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/info-tech/95-engineers-in-india-unfit-for-software-development-jobs-study/article9652211.ece http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/info-tech/95-engineers-i...

galdosdi 9y ago
Yes, this is an important point that many deny! A lot of lower paying technical work requires just as much skill. But it's about supply and demand. The faux intellectual vibe in programming is purely cultural due to class associations. If welders and prgorammers traded places in terms of class associations (ie, if welders earn what programmers earn and vice versa AND if welding was something you do in an office and programming was something you do in the field or workshop), well guess what? Welding would have an academic intellectual culture, and programming would have more of a blue collar culture. You'd hear complaints about welding interviews requiring memorization of chemical reaction formulas instead of practical skills. Programmers would probably long ago been unionized. Etc. A couple generations from now, basic programming skill will no longer be so scarce that even an idiot who manages to pick some up is highly valuable. The reason programming ability is scarce is not because it's much harder, but simply historical/cultural.
- convolvatron 9y ago
  ggp here. it was really meant to be a dig against levels of american investment in education and worker competitiveness. the only reason i'm posting is that i finally completed the transition from programmer to welder and i find my new peers generally smarter and harder working. fwiw
  - galdosdi 9y ago
    Whoa, I would love to hear more. I'm a dissatisfied software engineer and have often thought about trying to move into a technical hands on field like welding, electrician, auto mechanic, etc, in the hopes it'd be more satisfying, or at least less boring. (I agree american investment in education is abyssmal, and I bet gp might agree too, but mistook your comment's meaning)
    - convolvatron 9y ago
      i think 'smarter' was probably not the best use of words. equally smart and much more creative about getting the job done. original comment was too snarky as well, didn't really mean to hate on coal miners. it really is a false equivalence though. starting from nothing it took about 6 months practice and general skill building to where i could work on projects and not screw them up for everyone. one nice thing about this world is that if you aren't so good, you can still pull in minimum wage if you work hard. once you get the hang of things you can build up a client base and start charging more. and if you have any kind of flair for design you can start selling bespoke pieces instead of just being a pair of hands. after about $60/hr it gets a lot tougher. you don't really qualify for the really high-end work (i.e stainless pharmaceutical). and no insurance. I went back to tech for .. 4 years because of the pay difference and because of insurance for me and my wife, but I'm back in the shop now because..i think my software mindset is pretty radically different than the way things are done now. trade work is a constant challenge, and you can see your skills grow over time. faster, cleaner, more reliable, more clever. if you have a little* financial flexility and love hard work, i strongly recommend it as a second career. if i'm lucky in a software shop i get to solve a problem a day, in the metal shop i solve tens or hundreds. [oh, sorry, should make this clear - if you start in welding/machining you can certainly make quite a decent living, have benfits, etc - i'm just talking about coming in later in life being self taught and trying to carve out a little work here and there]
  - model_m_warrior 9y ago
    Doesn't surprise me in the least. Of the coal miners and programmers I know -- only one set enjoys a subset of people who've built and wired their own homes with little formal education and even less complaint.

galdosdi 9y ago

Yes, this is an important point that many deny! A lot of lower paying technical work requires just as much skill. But it's about supply and demand. The faux intellectual vibe in programming is purely cultural due to class associations. If welders and prgorammers traded places in terms of class associations (ie, if welders earn what programmers earn and vice versa AND if welding was something you do in an office and programming was something you do in the field or workshop), well guess what? Welding would have an academic intellectual culture, and programming would have more of a blue collar culture. You'd hear complaints about welding interviews requiring memorization of chemical reaction formulas instead of practical skills. Programmers would probably long ago been unionized. Etc. A couple generations from now, basic programming skill will no longer be so scarce that even an idiot who manages to pick some up is highly valuable. The reason programming ability is scarce is not because it's much harder, but simply historical/cultural.

convolvatron 9y ago
ggp here. it was really meant to be a dig against levels of american investment in education and worker competitiveness. the only reason i'm posting is that i finally completed the transition from programmer to welder and i find my new peers generally smarter and harder working. fwiw
- galdosdi 9y ago
  Whoa, I would love to hear more. I'm a dissatisfied software engineer and have often thought about trying to move into a technical hands on field like welding, electrician, auto mechanic, etc, in the hopes it'd be more satisfying, or at least less boring. (I agree american investment in education is abyssmal, and I bet gp might agree too, but mistook your comment's meaning)
  - convolvatron 9y ago
    i think 'smarter' was probably not the best use of words. equally smart and much more creative about getting the job done. original comment was too snarky as well, didn't really mean to hate on coal miners. it really is a false equivalence though. starting from nothing it took about 6 months practice and general skill building to where i could work on projects and not screw them up for everyone. one nice thing about this world is that if you aren't so good, you can still pull in minimum wage if you work hard. once you get the hang of things you can build up a client base and start charging more. and if you have any kind of flair for design you can start selling bespoke pieces instead of just being a pair of hands. after about $60/hr it gets a lot tougher. you don't really qualify for the really high-end work (i.e stainless pharmaceutical). and no insurance. I went back to tech for .. 4 years because of the pay difference and because of insurance for me and my wife, but I'm back in the shop now because..i think my software mindset is pretty radically different than the way things are done now. trade work is a constant challenge, and you can see your skills grow over time. faster, cleaner, more reliable, more clever. if you have a little* financial flexility and love hard work, i strongly recommend it as a second career. if i'm lucky in a software shop i get to solve a problem a day, in the metal shop i solve tens or hundreds. [oh, sorry, should make this clear - if you start in welding/machining you can certainly make quite a decent living, have benfits, etc - i'm just talking about coming in later in life being self taught and trying to carve out a little work here and there]
- model_m_warrior 9y ago
  Doesn't surprise me in the least. Of the coal miners and programmers I know -- only one set enjoys a subset of people who've built and wired their own homes with little formal education and even less complaint.