5 ms·

A co-worker of mine got divorced not long ago. I believe it went to court, but not sure (they both had lawyers). No kids were involved. His wife received hal

by amh 16y ago

A co-worker of mine got divorced not long ago. I believe it went to court, but not sure (they both had lawyers). No kids were involved. His wife received half his assets, 100% of their co-owned business, all of his retirement money, and substantial alimony for 5 years. He got a devalued house with 2 mortgages and a 15 year old car. The wife is also a skilled, in-demand professional who could easily make $60k/year+. Hearing face-to-face how badly this guy got fucked over was eye-opening to say the least. The truth is, family courts are highly biased against men. Get a pre-nup if you get married, or learn that truth the hard way.

thomasz 16y ago
> The truth is, family courts are highly biased against men Does anyone know about a study supporting this claim? Not that I'd be surprised, but confirmation bias can be a bitch...
- btilly 16y ago
  Much bitching by men notwithstanding, I believe the exact opposite. Statistics say that after divorce, men usually wind up better off and women worse off. One place that I wound up reading about this, with lots of specific statistics quoted, was The Price of Motherhood. (That source had an obvious axe to grind. But including lots of citations from actual research, and that is the part I'd trust here.)
  - cageface 16y ago
    I've read otherwise. Divorce is also initiated about 70% of the time by women now, with women typically getting better settlements: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce#Gender_and_divorce http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce#Gender_and_divorce Custody of children goes overwhelmingly to women too: http://deltabravo.net/custody/divrates.php http://deltabravo.net/custody/divrates.php What statistics are you referencing?
    - btilly 16y ago
      For every figure you have to dig deeper. You point out that divorce is initiated 70% of the time by women. However that has little direct correlation with how the divorce goes. You point out that women tend to get over 50% of the assets. This is true. However women tend to keep the kids, and therefore take an undue portion of the future economic liabilities coming from the relationship. In particular this makes it more likely that they will be granted the house - typically the couple's biggest asset. Furthermore if you include expected future income, women are suddenly much worse off. And we come to the more important point. It is indisputable that women are much more likely to be granted custody of the kids. However most of the time men don't actually want custody of the kids. When men choose to contest it, they usually wind up with the kids. (For the simple reason that, having a more dependable source of income, men are typically in a better position to raise the kids.) you have to look at what the couple wanted. Men who choose to contest custody usually wind up with the kids. Therefore the fact that the woman tends to wind up with the bulk of the responsibility for that liability isn't actually a sign that women are coming out ahead in the divorce.
      - cageface 16y ago
        However women tend to keep the kids, and therefore take an undue portion of the future economic liabilities coming from the relationship. In this case they also get child support and, often, alimony. However most of the time men don't actually want custody of the kids. When men choose to contest it, they usually wind up with the kids. Source? For the simple reason that, having a more dependable source of income, men are typically in a better position to raise the kids. This isn't 1950 anymore. Women now outnumber men in many professions and are earning more college degrees. Of the couples in my office only one has a stay-at-home wife. In many of these couples the wife has a job with more authority and a better salary. Child care is being outsourced. It's true that either side can lose out in a divorce but it's just not true anymore that divorce favors men.
- todayiamme 16y ago
  The funny thing is that you face bias even if you are a man or a women. Let's face it. It sucks to be a woman in 90% of the world. You do not have any right over your own body. You are a second rate citizen. At best. Oh and you are a commodity to be kept "intact" and sold through something that resembles marriage, but isn't marriage. Not to mention a vagina that has the audacity to bleed once a month causing pain that most men simply don't understand. Yet it is equally hard to be male, especially if you deviate from the established norms of masculinity. It is quite interesting how society censors effeminate male behavior than masculine female behavior. It doesn't matter where you are born being a gender variant kid isn't exactly a nice deal. However, if you are the alpha male who pounds his hairy muscular chest while trying to club women, then you've got it made. At the same time I see reverse discrimination operate for males in a lot of spaces. Granted it is not as wide spread as discrimination against women, but it exists. Somehow society has taught us that women cannot perpetuate sexual abuse, or any kind of abuse for that matter and we agree to tow the line. I've actually seen people being framed by women who abuse laws that exist to protect them against a chauvinistic society. I guess this is what they call the human condition, and in a lot of ways it will stop only when we stop segregating people into roles based upon some difference we can come up with. I wish I could tell people to calm down and just let each other be. P.S. - Read Sarah Hoffman's work on parenting a gender variant child (http://www.sarahhoffmanwriter.com/ http://www.sarahhoffmanwriter.com/).
dagw 16y ago
And be fully aware that pre-nups can and often are overturned in divorce courts. Also be aware that different countries have very different rules regarding pre-nups and divorce. So even if your pre-nup is watertight when you get married, if you subsequently move and end up getting divorced in a different country then don't expect your old pre-nup to be worth anything.

by amh 16y ago

thomasz 16y ago

> The truth is, family courts are highly biased against men Does anyone know about a study supporting this claim? Not that I'd be surprised, but confirmation bias can be a bitch...

btilly 16y ago
Much bitching by men notwithstanding, I believe the exact opposite. Statistics say that after divorce, men usually wind up better off and women worse off. One place that I wound up reading about this, with lots of specific statistics quoted, was The Price of Motherhood. (That source had an obvious axe to grind. But including lots of citations from actual research, and that is the part I'd trust here.)
- cageface 16y ago
  I've read otherwise. Divorce is also initiated about 70% of the time by women now, with women typically getting better settlements: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce#Gender_and_divorce http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce#Gender_and_divorce Custody of children goes overwhelmingly to women too: http://deltabravo.net/custody/divrates.php http://deltabravo.net/custody/divrates.php What statistics are you referencing?
  - btilly 16y ago
    For every figure you have to dig deeper. You point out that divorce is initiated 70% of the time by women. However that has little direct correlation with how the divorce goes. You point out that women tend to get over 50% of the assets. This is true. However women tend to keep the kids, and therefore take an undue portion of the future economic liabilities coming from the relationship. In particular this makes it more likely that they will be granted the house - typically the couple's biggest asset. Furthermore if you include expected future income, women are suddenly much worse off. And we come to the more important point. It is indisputable that women are much more likely to be granted custody of the kids. However most of the time men don't actually want custody of the kids. When men choose to contest it, they usually wind up with the kids. (For the simple reason that, having a more dependable source of income, men are typically in a better position to raise the kids.) you have to look at what the couple wanted. Men who choose to contest custody usually wind up with the kids. Therefore the fact that the woman tends to wind up with the bulk of the responsibility for that liability isn't actually a sign that women are coming out ahead in the divorce.
    - cageface 16y ago
      However women tend to keep the kids, and therefore take an undue portion of the future economic liabilities coming from the relationship. In this case they also get child support and, often, alimony. However most of the time men don't actually want custody of the kids. When men choose to contest it, they usually wind up with the kids. Source? For the simple reason that, having a more dependable source of income, men are typically in a better position to raise the kids. This isn't 1950 anymore. Women now outnumber men in many professions and are earning more college degrees. Of the couples in my office only one has a stay-at-home wife. In many of these couples the wife has a job with more authority and a better salary. Child care is being outsourced. It's true that either side can lose out in a divorce but it's just not true anymore that divorce favors men.
todayiamme 16y ago
The funny thing is that you face bias even if you are a man or a women. Let's face it. It sucks to be a woman in 90% of the world. You do not have any right over your own body. You are a second rate citizen. At best. Oh and you are a commodity to be kept "intact" and sold through something that resembles marriage, but isn't marriage. Not to mention a vagina that has the audacity to bleed once a month causing pain that most men simply don't understand. Yet it is equally hard to be male, especially if you deviate from the established norms of masculinity. It is quite interesting how society censors effeminate male behavior than masculine female behavior. It doesn't matter where you are born being a gender variant kid isn't exactly a nice deal. However, if you are the alpha male who pounds his hairy muscular chest while trying to club women, then you've got it made. At the same time I see reverse discrimination operate for males in a lot of spaces. Granted it is not as wide spread as discrimination against women, but it exists. Somehow society has taught us that women cannot perpetuate sexual abuse, or any kind of abuse for that matter and we agree to tow the line. I've actually seen people being framed by women who abuse laws that exist to protect them against a chauvinistic society. I guess this is what they call the human condition, and in a lot of ways it will stop only when we stop segregating people into roles based upon some difference we can come up with. I wish I could tell people to calm down and just let each other be. P.S. - Read Sarah Hoffman's work on parenting a gender variant child (http://www.sarahhoffmanwriter.com/ http://www.sarahhoffmanwriter.com/).

dagw 16y ago

And be fully aware that pre-nups can and often are overturned in divorce courts. Also be aware that different countries have very different rules regarding pre-nups and divorce. So even if your pre-nup is watertight when you get married, if you subsequently move and end up getting divorced in a different country then don't expect your old pre-nup to be worth anything.