3 ms·

Interesting to see this on HN. I'm actually at the congress right now in Seoul, I can answer any questions people might have (though this is only my second cong

Interesting to see this on HN. I'm actually at the congress right now in Seoul, I can answer any questions people might have (though this is only my second congress). In general I find that the speakers from Asia have to try harder to be understood because of the reduced shared vocabulary and different phonetics. It seems much easier for a speaker of Spanish or Italian.

kikimaru 9y ago
What is the general feel on "Esperanto vs English as a world language" there?
- saiya-jin 9y ago
  it's english and will be for quite some time. maybe not a perfect language, but good enough, simple enough to learn to OK level (compared to french for example).
- etatoby 9y ago
  This. In particular: what's the purpose of Esperanto now that anybody either speaks English or wishes they did and will make sure their children do?
  - robotoloco 9y ago
    English does not fulfill the neutrality ideal of Esperanto, which many people that speak Esperanto think it's very important. Currently, if you are born in an English speak country, you have such a great advantage over everybody else (starting with you don't have to spend lots of money to learn English, and few people attain native speaking levels later in life). But it is true that the current purpose of Esperanto is more ideal than practical. I study Esperanto because I really like its internal ideals. I study English because I want to eat.
    - msla 9y ago
      Esperanto fails at being neutral because it's inherently oriented towards the subset of European languages Zamenhof based it off of. Someone who speaks German or Czech would have an easier time learning it than someone who speaks Mongolian or Korean or Mandarin Chinese.
      - chillacy 9y ago
        I find that spanish/italian speakers pick up esperanto the easiest, followed by I suppose french speakers and english speakers. Harder for any speakers who don't already speak a latin-derived language.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > English does not fulfill the neutrality ideal of Esperanto, which many people that speak Esperanto think it's very important. Yeah, but neither does Esperanto; it's kind of unlikely that a language designed by a human without a strict, mechanical methodology to assure neutrality would, and even then it would need to be isolated from the normal forces that affect natural languages for it to retain that neutrality. English is probably, in some senses, more neutral than Esperanto; for one thing, English probably has a far greater share of speakers (even first-language speakers) that aren't middle-class-and-above natives of developed countries in Europe or dominated by populations of European descent.
      - chillacy 9y ago
        Eh, I wouldn't say the share of english speakers everywhere reflects its neutrality as much as its usefulness in the modern world. English is currently the international language, even at the esperanto congress. But it makes me appreciate having english as a native language, because I have to watch two non-native speakers struggle (like a polish guy ordering coffee from a korean barista).
    - awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
      > English does not fulfill the neutrality ideal of Esperanto Esperanto isn't "neutral". It's entirely a european language which copied tons from latin/german/russian.
  - chillacy 9y ago
    I wasn't around for this, but my understanding is that the community had a crisis and needed to rally around a new cause to exist, and that schism is called Raumism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raumism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raumism The next question I suppose is: is esperanto culture worth being a part of? It took me 3 months to learn esperanto (with duolingo), but there are a lot of benefits. Generally people are friendly and inviting, partly due to it's non-mainstream nature (consider behavior during the early days of the internet vs youtube comments now) * It's a foreign language, and there are studies which link language acquisition with mental health (though I'm not sure how solid they are) * It's an excuse to travel to cities worldwide where you might not go by yourself otherwise. I've found that solo travel at esperanto conferences is great.
- chillacy 9y ago
  Before english became the world's international language, that sentiment I think was pretty strong. Now there's no doubt about english as being the international language. I most recently witnessed a japanese speaker and korean speaker who were chatting and when one used an esperanto word the other didn't know, they found the meaning by saying the english word (even though their english wasn't great). I haven't met many esperantists who don't speak English at all or even at a pretty decent level. It seems for most the new goal is to participate in esperanto culture, which is definitely its own thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raumism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raumism
fusiongyro 9y ago
How large is the congress? What nations are under/over-represented? How strong is the Esperanto culture? Are there a lot of language dweebs or is it mostly people who buy the vision? Is it growing?
- chillacy 9y ago
  1129 participants this year. The top 5 represented countries are: 1. S. Korea - 242 2. Japan - 186 3. China - 114 4. France - 85 5. Germany - 36 There's a pretty long tail of 61 countries this year. (they published stats in the kongresa libro - congress book) I find that most esperantists are europeans. The euorpean congresses tend to also be the biggest. Culturally, there seems to be an age gap. The older generation (of which there are a lot of, I'd say the majority for sure are over 50) tends to be more into people who buy into the vision of world peace and inter-cultural communication. The younger crowd tends to be a mixture of world-travelers, language nerds, programmers, kids of esperantists, and people looking for a subculture to latch on to. Not sure if it's growing, attendance seems to vary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Esperanto_Congress#/media/File:Attendance_At_Each_Universala_Kongreso_1905-2015.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Esperanto_Congress#/medi...
awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
> In general I find that the speakers from Asia have to try harder to be understood because of the reduced shared vocabulary and different phonetics. It seems much easier for a speaker of Spanish or Italian. That's because esperanto is pretty much latin + german + russian. That's the roots of the esperanto. Esperanto was a silly attempt to "unify" europe via a single language. The article was rather silly. But I guess it was written by esperanto fanatic who wants to spread esperanto. It'll never happen - lest of all in asia, but the best of luck to him.
- chillacy 9y ago
  I'm a speaker of esperanto so I'm well aware of the roots and history. But it's a fun silly language.

kikimaru 9y ago

What is the general feel on "Esperanto vs English as a world language" there?

saiya-jin 9y ago
it's english and will be for quite some time. maybe not a perfect language, but good enough, simple enough to learn to OK level (compared to french for example).
etatoby 9y ago
This. In particular: what's the purpose of Esperanto now that anybody either speaks English or wishes they did and will make sure their children do?
- robotoloco 9y ago
  English does not fulfill the neutrality ideal of Esperanto, which many people that speak Esperanto think it's very important. Currently, if you are born in an English speak country, you have such a great advantage over everybody else (starting with you don't have to spend lots of money to learn English, and few people attain native speaking levels later in life). But it is true that the current purpose of Esperanto is more ideal than practical. I study Esperanto because I really like its internal ideals. I study English because I want to eat.
  - msla 9y ago
    Esperanto fails at being neutral because it's inherently oriented towards the subset of European languages Zamenhof based it off of. Someone who speaks German or Czech would have an easier time learning it than someone who speaks Mongolian or Korean or Mandarin Chinese.
    - chillacy 9y ago
      I find that spanish/italian speakers pick up esperanto the easiest, followed by I suppose french speakers and english speakers. Harder for any speakers who don't already speak a latin-derived language.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > English does not fulfill the neutrality ideal of Esperanto, which many people that speak Esperanto think it's very important. Yeah, but neither does Esperanto; it's kind of unlikely that a language designed by a human without a strict, mechanical methodology to assure neutrality would, and even then it would need to be isolated from the normal forces that affect natural languages for it to retain that neutrality. English is probably, in some senses, more neutral than Esperanto; for one thing, English probably has a far greater share of speakers (even first-language speakers) that aren't middle-class-and-above natives of developed countries in Europe or dominated by populations of European descent.
    - chillacy 9y ago
      Eh, I wouldn't say the share of english speakers everywhere reflects its neutrality as much as its usefulness in the modern world. English is currently the international language, even at the esperanto congress. But it makes me appreciate having english as a native language, because I have to watch two non-native speakers struggle (like a polish guy ordering coffee from a korean barista).
  - awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
    > English does not fulfill the neutrality ideal of Esperanto Esperanto isn't "neutral". It's entirely a european language which copied tons from latin/german/russian.
- chillacy 9y ago
  I wasn't around for this, but my understanding is that the community had a crisis and needed to rally around a new cause to exist, and that schism is called Raumism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raumism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raumism The next question I suppose is: is esperanto culture worth being a part of? It took me 3 months to learn esperanto (with duolingo), but there are a lot of benefits. Generally people are friendly and inviting, partly due to it's non-mainstream nature (consider behavior during the early days of the internet vs youtube comments now) * It's a foreign language, and there are studies which link language acquisition with mental health (though I'm not sure how solid they are) * It's an excuse to travel to cities worldwide where you might not go by yourself otherwise. I've found that solo travel at esperanto conferences is great.
chillacy 9y ago
Before english became the world's international language, that sentiment I think was pretty strong. Now there's no doubt about english as being the international language. I most recently witnessed a japanese speaker and korean speaker who were chatting and when one used an esperanto word the other didn't know, they found the meaning by saying the english word (even though their english wasn't great). I haven't met many esperantists who don't speak English at all or even at a pretty decent level. It seems for most the new goal is to participate in esperanto culture, which is definitely its own thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raumism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raumism

fusiongyro 9y ago

How large is the congress? What nations are under/over-represented? How strong is the Esperanto culture? Are there a lot of language dweebs or is it mostly people who buy the vision? Is it growing?

chillacy 9y ago
1129 participants this year. The top 5 represented countries are: 1. S. Korea - 242 2. Japan - 186 3. China - 114 4. France - 85 5. Germany - 36 There's a pretty long tail of 61 countries this year. (they published stats in the kongresa libro - congress book) I find that most esperantists are europeans. The euorpean congresses tend to also be the biggest. Culturally, there seems to be an age gap. The older generation (of which there are a lot of, I'd say the majority for sure are over 50) tends to be more into people who buy into the vision of world peace and inter-cultural communication. The younger crowd tends to be a mixture of world-travelers, language nerds, programmers, kids of esperantists, and people looking for a subculture to latch on to. Not sure if it's growing, attendance seems to vary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Esperanto_Congress#/media/File:Attendance_At_Each_Universala_Kongreso_1905-2015.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Esperanto_Congress#/medi...

awkwarddaturtle 9y ago

> In general I find that the speakers from Asia have to try harder to be understood because of the reduced shared vocabulary and different phonetics. It seems much easier for a speaker of Spanish or Italian. That's because esperanto is pretty much latin + german + russian. That's the roots of the esperanto. Esperanto was a silly attempt to "unify" europe via a single language. The article was rather silly. But I guess it was written by esperanto fanatic who wants to spread esperanto. It'll never happen - lest of all in asia, but the best of luck to him.

chillacy 9y ago
I'm a speaker of esperanto so I'm well aware of the roots and history. But it's a fun silly language.