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> ...the left in general couldn't understand why anyone would vote for this obvious shyster If it seems like I'm singling out NPR, I didn't mean to. All left w

> ...the left in general couldn't understand why anyone would vote for this obvious shyster If it seems like I'm singling out NPR, I didn't mean to. All left wing outlets messed up or this wouldn't be an issue. I'm saying the audience should do a better job of understanding the people who voted for Trump. And the left-leaning media has to produce many, many pieces aimed in that direction. Why would Fox News produce pieces to explain to cosmopolitan types why Obama policies failed to improve poverty in Tennessee or El Paso? Or why Iowans without employer-provided healthcare feel like collateral damage in the battle for socialized medicine?

mikeash 9y ago
I'm saying that maybe left-wing outlets didn't mess up, maybe understanding a Trump voter really is just that difficult. I still can't, and I don't think better coverage would have changed that.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > maybe understanding a Trump voter really is just that difficult Well, over 40% of voters last time around certainly understood. I've read thoughtful and/or insightful things as well, so there's media out there. It's just a matter of people with appropriate credibility consuming, curating, and re-explaining these things to their audiences. I could repost things I've found compelling, but until the Terry Gross's and John Oliver's of the world start taking white blue collar concerns at face value (not just people not smart enough to be cosmopolitan socialists yet), I'm not sure it will help much.
  - konradb 9y ago
    > start taking white blue collar concerns at face value What concerns are these, specifically?
    - smallnamespace 9y ago
      Losing their position in society. Becoming marginalized socially and economically. Being made economically irrelevant by automation, immigrants, or outsourcing. Seeing their beliefs and value systems being ignored, circumvented, eroded of traditional legal support (e.g. gay marriage, Roe v. Wade) and replaced by secularism. Middle-aged white people in the US are seeing increase in mortality while other groups in the US and outside see drops [1]. This is the result of chronic long-term stressors. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/health/death-rates-rising-for-middle-aged-white-americans-study-finds.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/health/death-rates-rising...
      - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
        Many groups that were against the gay marriage ruling, have changed their opinions in the last decade, and are now for it. I believe blue collar workers were among the group that swung the furthest. You specify white blue collar, but white people generally are slightly more pro than black people. The surprising speed of the change has been explained by some as being due to individuals not actually being against it, but believing that everyone else was against it, and so going with the flow. When it became an issue, it became clear that it was actually only a minority that was against it, so it became socially acceptable to be for it. There are still some fascinating demographic gaps though, as shown by these nice graphs of pew poll results: http://www.people-press.org/2017/06/26/support-for-same-sex-marriage-grows-even-among-groups-that-had-been-skeptical/ http://www.people-press.org/2017/06/26/support-for-same-sex-...
      - krapp 9y ago
        But the thing is - these things aren't only happening to white people. Everyone is being made economically irrelevant by automation, immigrants or outsourcing. Non-white Conservatives and Christians also feel their value systems are being ignored, circumvented, etc. It's not just white people who wear the blue collars, or work in the mines and steel mills, or who hold those "traditional" American values/ Why then is the explanation of Trump's rise often presented as a reaction to the cultural oppression and disenfranchisement of white people exclusively, when so many of the complaints mentioned as valid reasons for Trump support have nothing to do with race? It seems like an attempt at alt-right retroactive continuity.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Taking those concerns at face value doesn't seem like enough. How do you get from that to "therefore I really want this con-man to be President"?
- pharrington 9y ago
  Just take what people say at face value. For example, if someone says they're frustrated with the political status quo, and and voted for Trump because they perceived him as not being the status quo, despite it being a very tunnel visioned viewpoint, it has a very low cognitive overhead. Understandability is extremely different from rationality, and rationality plays a minimal role in a popular vote.

mikeash 9y ago

I'm saying that maybe left-wing outlets didn't mess up, maybe understanding a Trump voter really is just that difficult. I still can't, and I don't think better coverage would have changed that.

humanrebar 9y ago
> maybe understanding a Trump voter really is just that difficult Well, over 40% of voters last time around certainly understood. I've read thoughtful and/or insightful things as well, so there's media out there. It's just a matter of people with appropriate credibility consuming, curating, and re-explaining these things to their audiences. I could repost things I've found compelling, but until the Terry Gross's and John Oliver's of the world start taking white blue collar concerns at face value (not just people not smart enough to be cosmopolitan socialists yet), I'm not sure it will help much.
- konradb 9y ago
  > start taking white blue collar concerns at face value What concerns are these, specifically?
  - smallnamespace 9y ago
    Losing their position in society. Becoming marginalized socially and economically. Being made economically irrelevant by automation, immigrants, or outsourcing. Seeing their beliefs and value systems being ignored, circumvented, eroded of traditional legal support (e.g. gay marriage, Roe v. Wade) and replaced by secularism. Middle-aged white people in the US are seeing increase in mortality while other groups in the US and outside see drops [1]. This is the result of chronic long-term stressors. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/health/death-rates-rising-for-middle-aged-white-americans-study-finds.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/health/death-rates-rising...
    - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
      Many groups that were against the gay marriage ruling, have changed their opinions in the last decade, and are now for it. I believe blue collar workers were among the group that swung the furthest. You specify white blue collar, but white people generally are slightly more pro than black people. The surprising speed of the change has been explained by some as being due to individuals not actually being against it, but believing that everyone else was against it, and so going with the flow. When it became an issue, it became clear that it was actually only a minority that was against it, so it became socially acceptable to be for it. There are still some fascinating demographic gaps though, as shown by these nice graphs of pew poll results: http://www.people-press.org/2017/06/26/support-for-same-sex-marriage-grows-even-among-groups-that-had-been-skeptical/ http://www.people-press.org/2017/06/26/support-for-same-sex-...
    - krapp 9y ago
      But the thing is - these things aren't only happening to white people. Everyone is being made economically irrelevant by automation, immigrants or outsourcing. Non-white Conservatives and Christians also feel their value systems are being ignored, circumvented, etc. It's not just white people who wear the blue collars, or work in the mines and steel mills, or who hold those "traditional" American values/ Why then is the explanation of Trump's rise often presented as a reaction to the cultural oppression and disenfranchisement of white people exclusively, when so many of the complaints mentioned as valid reasons for Trump support have nothing to do with race? It seems like an attempt at alt-right retroactive continuity.
- mikeash 9y ago
  Taking those concerns at face value doesn't seem like enough. How do you get from that to "therefore I really want this con-man to be President"?
pharrington 9y ago
Just take what people say at face value. For example, if someone says they're frustrated with the political status quo, and and voted for Trump because they perceived him as not being the status quo, despite it being a very tunnel visioned viewpoint, it has a very low cognitive overhead. Understandability is extremely different from rationality, and rationality plays a minimal role in a popular vote.