4 ms·

I tend to think one way. To help me understand the "other way," I try to understand their belief system before I try to understand their arguments. Let me try t

I tend to think one way. To help me understand the "other way," I try to understand their belief system before I try to understand their arguments. Let me try to use two examples, one from each side. Don't worry about why some people believe in welfare before you try to understand their beliefs in "justice." Don't try to understand gun rights before understanding "liberty."

mikeash 9y ago
I do this, or at least I like to think I do. For example, I am firmly in favor of socialized medicine, but I understand why many people are against it (both the "they don't understand how it actually works in other countries" camp, and the "they understand it and just don't think it's a good idea" camp). I'm firmly in favor of stricter gun control (although I think the Democrats should ditch it, as it's hurting them and it's way down on the list of priorities) but I understand why people oppose it. I was basically raised Republican, spent some time as a libertarian, and gradually came around to a Democrat-leaning independent viewpoint. I understand why someone would have voted for Mitt Romney. I understand why someone would have voted for John McCain. I seriously considered voting for John McCain, and the main reason I didn't was his choice of VP. But Trump eludes me. The man is basically what you get when the worst kind of used car salesman is born into money. I cannot understand how anyone can look at him and say, yes, that man should be leading this country. Not because he disagrees with what I, a Democrat-leaning independent believe, but because he clearly has no actual beliefs, principles, or policies of his own, and for nearly every position he has ever espoused, he has also espoused the opposite, sometimes within the same sentence. I can understand why a person would believe that we should have less gun control. I can't understand why that person would then vote for Donald Trump, who said that the police should search people on the street and confiscate their guns.
- aaronbrethorst 9y ago
  'Yeah, I'm a huckster. But I'm the best, and now I'm going to be a huckster for you.' That is, as best as I can tell, the core of it. That and: - Clinton took the midwestern 'blue firewall' for granted - Russia - Comey - Sexism - Voter suppression, especially amongst African-Americans - Really wrong candidate for a strongly populism-tinged election cycle 120,000 votes total across three states would've flipped the election, and we'd be having a totally different conversation right now. n.b. I voted for Clinton in the primaries and general.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Just a minor correction to that last point: Clinton lost Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin by a total of just under 80,000 votes. That means that only 40,000 votes flipping could have changed the outcome, if they had flipped in the right places. Of course, this is nothing compared to 2000, where the number was a mere 269.
    - aaronbrethorst 9y ago
      Whoops, my bad. You're absolutely right.
- smallnamespace 9y ago
  > I cannot understand how anyone can look at him and say, yes, that man should be leading this country They support Trump because they admire him, plain and simple. He's a blowhard who's blustered his way into becoming President of the United States. A regular working-class guy knows he's no Obama, or Lincoln, or Ronald Reagan. But he looks at Trump and thinks to himself, 'If THAT guy can make it, then so can I.' To them, Trump is literally the American Dream of upward mobility incarnate.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    How can Trump be upward mobility incarnate when he inherited tens of millions of dollars, though?
    - smallnamespace 9y ago
      Because that part's easy to ignore. He may have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth, but he doesn't have class. He acts like the boorish nouveau riche who upends all the upper crust's social and political conventions. The more elites (regardless of party) are offended and publish long screeds about how he will destroy the Republic, the more the base love him.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        That's pretty much my problem. Every attempt to understand why someone would support Trump eventually comes down to either "his supporters are complete idiots" or comparisons to Hitler. Express either one and people jump down my throat saying I need to be more open-minded, respect people's opinions, occasionally consume news that doesn't just conform to my biases, etc.
        smallnamespace 9y ago
        I don't think they're idiots. I think they feel justifiably desperate and are acting rationally within that framework. Who do you trust more -- coastal and city elites who think your religion is hogwash, your values are garbage, your biggest problems are that you're ignorant, racist, and white? A Republican Party that says they're for you, and then turns around and nakedly passes legislation that will gut your communities and keep shipping jobs off shore? Or an untried, loud-mouth demagogue who promises everything to you, but at least he's not part of the same system that's been screwing you over for the past 30 years? When you feel your back's against the wall and you've nothing to lose, you roll the dice.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- wfo 9y ago
  For some the vote was simply an expression of their hatred for centrist/liberal/media elites and pundit class who look down on them. If you look at polls, lots of Trump supporters voted for him because of political correctness. If you listen to them, you hear about gleefully reveling in "liberal tears". Plenty of people voted for him exactly because him winning hurt people they hate and really little else beyond that. And I think you underestimate the pure hatred for Hillary Clinton. Far more voted against her than for him. When your life is miserable and your community is dying and a rich lady you've hated for decades tells you "America is already great" (this was actually her slogan!), well.... Imagine being a truck driver and watching this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YttscNOoAjA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YttscNOoAjA Finally, at the end of the day your rank and file republicans are just going to go to the polls and check the box next to 'R' like they always do, no matter what. Religious republicans will say a prayer when they do it, poor ones will convince themselves he'll help them, moderate ones will convince themselves Hillary is worse. You'd sooner convert one of them than convince a lifelong fan to change their favorite sports team. Similar with democrats.

mikeash 9y ago

I do this, or at least I like to think I do. For example, I am firmly in favor of socialized medicine, but I understand why many people are against it (both the "they don't understand how it actually works in other countries" camp, and the "they understand it and just don't think it's a good idea" camp). I'm firmly in favor of stricter gun control (although I think the Democrats should ditch it, as it's hurting them and it's way down on the list of priorities) but I understand why people oppose it. I was basically raised Republican, spent some time as a libertarian, and gradually came around to a Democrat-leaning independent viewpoint. I understand why someone would have voted for Mitt Romney. I understand why someone would have voted for John McCain. I seriously considered voting for John McCain, and the main reason I didn't was his choice of VP. But Trump eludes me. The man is basically what you get when the worst kind of used car salesman is born into money. I cannot understand how anyone can look at him and say, yes, that man should be leading this country. Not because he disagrees with what I, a Democrat-leaning independent believe, but because he clearly has no actual beliefs, principles, or policies of his own, and for nearly every position he has ever espoused, he has also espoused the opposite, sometimes within the same sentence. I can understand why a person would believe that we should have less gun control. I can't understand why that person would then vote for Donald Trump, who said that the police should search people on the street and confiscate their guns.

aaronbrethorst 9y ago
'Yeah, I'm a huckster. But I'm the best, and now I'm going to be a huckster for you.' That is, as best as I can tell, the core of it. That and: - Clinton took the midwestern 'blue firewall' for granted - Russia - Comey - Sexism - Voter suppression, especially amongst African-Americans - Really wrong candidate for a strongly populism-tinged election cycle 120,000 votes total across three states would've flipped the election, and we'd be having a totally different conversation right now. n.b. I voted for Clinton in the primaries and general.
- mikeash 9y ago
  Just a minor correction to that last point: Clinton lost Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin by a total of just under 80,000 votes. That means that only 40,000 votes flipping could have changed the outcome, if they had flipped in the right places. Of course, this is nothing compared to 2000, where the number was a mere 269.
  - aaronbrethorst 9y ago
    Whoops, my bad. You're absolutely right.
smallnamespace 9y ago
> I cannot understand how anyone can look at him and say, yes, that man should be leading this country They support Trump because they admire him, plain and simple. He's a blowhard who's blustered his way into becoming President of the United States. A regular working-class guy knows he's no Obama, or Lincoln, or Ronald Reagan. But he looks at Trump and thinks to himself, 'If THAT guy can make it, then so can I.' To them, Trump is literally the American Dream of upward mobility incarnate.
- mikeash 9y ago
  How can Trump be upward mobility incarnate when he inherited tens of millions of dollars, though?
  - smallnamespace 9y ago
    Because that part's easy to ignore. He may have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth, but he doesn't have class. He acts like the boorish nouveau riche who upends all the upper crust's social and political conventions. The more elites (regardless of party) are offended and publish long screeds about how he will destroy the Republic, the more the base love him.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      That's pretty much my problem. Every attempt to understand why someone would support Trump eventually comes down to either "his supporters are complete idiots" or comparisons to Hitler. Express either one and people jump down my throat saying I need to be more open-minded, respect people's opinions, occasionally consume news that doesn't just conform to my biases, etc.
      - smallnamespace 9y ago
        I don't think they're idiots. I think they feel justifiably desperate and are acting rationally within that framework. Who do you trust more -- coastal and city elites who think your religion is hogwash, your values are garbage, your biggest problems are that you're ignorant, racist, and white? A Republican Party that says they're for you, and then turns around and nakedly passes legislation that will gut your communities and keep shipping jobs off shore? Or an untried, loud-mouth demagogue who promises everything to you, but at least he's not part of the same system that's been screwing you over for the past 30 years? When you feel your back's against the wall and you've nothing to lose, you roll the dice.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
wfo 9y ago
For some the vote was simply an expression of their hatred for centrist/liberal/media elites and pundit class who look down on them. If you look at polls, lots of Trump supporters voted for him because of political correctness. If you listen to them, you hear about gleefully reveling in "liberal tears". Plenty of people voted for him exactly because him winning hurt people they hate and really little else beyond that. And I think you underestimate the pure hatred for Hillary Clinton. Far more voted against her than for him. When your life is miserable and your community is dying and a rich lady you've hated for decades tells you "America is already great" (this was actually her slogan!), well.... Imagine being a truck driver and watching this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YttscNOoAjA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YttscNOoAjA Finally, at the end of the day your rank and file republicans are just going to go to the polls and check the box next to 'R' like they always do, no matter what. Religious republicans will say a prayer when they do it, poor ones will convince themselves he'll help them, moderate ones will convince themselves Hillary is worse. You'd sooner convert one of them than convince a lifelong fan to change their favorite sports team. Similar with democrats.