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French here. French politicians, and a big part of the population also, are weirdly defensive about using any international language other than French. French

by Iv 9y ago

French here. French politicians, and a big part of the population also, are weirdly defensive about using any international language other than French. French is actually used in some international organization: international post (and aviation I think?) as well as diplomacy. That latter one may make some politicians blind to the fact that the game is set: English won as the de facto international language. France could dispute the status of superpower to UK in the time of colonial empires but this time is definitely over, but some are deluded into thinking that we could still dispute the status of English as the predominant language. It is a combination of pride and laziness that makes so many people consider that we should not accept English as an international language. I find it stupid, but it is not a thing that is specific to the far-right nationalists.

schoen 9y ago
Aviation uses English, although that was a change from the widespread tradition of using French for international purposes, at least throughout the 19th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_English
danmaz74 9y ago
> France could dispute the status of superpower to UK in the time of colonial empires but this time is definitely over, but some are deluded into thinking that we could still dispute the status of English as the predominant language. This is really a pity, as it unnecessarily slowing down EU integration. I hope the newer generations of French understand it.
- icebraining 9y ago
  In a way, the Brexit may make that easier, since English becomes more neutral among the remaining EU members (there's still Ireland, but they don't pose the threat that the UK did).
simias 9y ago
I mostly agree but I think it's a bit simplistic. Languages aren't just a neutral tool, they come with a culture. English is the modern lingua franca not because of some inherent quality of the language but because it's the language of the USA, by far the greatest economic, military and cultural superpower of our times. Do you realize how much power and influence this gives the USA? We have Captain America in theaters, but Captain China and Peru are nowhere to be seen. When's the last time you've seen a company motto in Spanish or Italian? English, I'm Loving It, Just Do It, Think Different. Does it make sense to make English the de-facto standard language for the EU when Ireland is the only country left in it which uses it natively? I'm all for people learning English to facilitate the dialogue between countries and cultures but I think it's very noble and important to strive to preserve diversity, linguistically and culturally. D'un français à un autre, en anglais, sur un forum anglophone.
- lucozade 9y ago
  I entirely agree with you about the value of maintaining diversity but Iv was pretty much pointing out that Esperanto was vetoed in order to prevent an increase in diversity. French was the diplomatic lingua franca and the French delegates were working very hard to maintain that. English is now the lingua franca in many fields due to US hegemony as you say. Even though it's not due to any inherent virtue it's not, of itself, a bad thing. I'm not a big fan of Americanization (sic) but that's a slightly different thing from a common means of communication. The latter may well mean we have to suffer some of the former but I personally think it's worth it (don't tell my daughter I, like, said that OK?). Obviously this will never happen but now would be great time for the EU to adopt English as a common tongue, precisely because of Brexit. It'd clearly not be because of a cultural dominance within the EU and it would save a ton of money and a lot of wasted effort. I await the response of the Académie française with bated breath.
  - simias 9y ago
    Yeah I agree with you. There's a difference between preserving diversity and trying to push your language down other people's throat. Clearly some of our laws and official posturing has more to do with the latter than the former. And obviously I won't oppose English becoming the language of the EU since the other obvious contender would be German and I can barely speak a lick of Deutsch!
titanix2 9y ago
I think it's a good thing we try to defend our language. With no international reach it would slowly be replaced by English even at home in some given fields (graduate studies, for example). That said, promoting French should not be equated with replacing other languages (like it was done with regional languages): it is a non-zero-sum game as people can learn multiples languages. So we should not only promote French as a second language for international communication but also work harder to learn foreign languages. In this framework, nor English nor Esperanto development are ennemies of French use.
- Bakary 9y ago
  Learning another language provides enough of a challenge that monolingual English will necessarily win out in international communication and science in the long term as it is the solution that provides the least friction. However, I fully agree that France should be careful to preserve its own linguistic culture lest they become like Sweden or the Netherlands in terms of getting dominated by Anglophone patterns of thought and expression.

by Iv 9y ago

schoen 9y ago

Aviation uses English, although that was a change from the widespread tradition of using French for international purposes, at least throughout the 19th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_English

danmaz74 9y ago

> France could dispute the status of superpower to UK in the time of colonial empires but this time is definitely over, but some are deluded into thinking that we could still dispute the status of English as the predominant language. This is really a pity, as it unnecessarily slowing down EU integration. I hope the newer generations of French understand it.

icebraining 9y ago
In a way, the Brexit may make that easier, since English becomes more neutral among the remaining EU members (there's still Ireland, but they don't pose the threat that the UK did).

simias 9y ago

I mostly agree but I think it's a bit simplistic. Languages aren't just a neutral tool, they come with a culture. English is the modern lingua franca not because of some inherent quality of the language but because it's the language of the USA, by far the greatest economic, military and cultural superpower of our times. Do you realize how much power and influence this gives the USA? We have Captain America in theaters, but Captain China and Peru are nowhere to be seen. When's the last time you've seen a company motto in Spanish or Italian? English, I'm Loving It, Just Do It, Think Different. Does it make sense to make English the de-facto standard language for the EU when Ireland is the only country left in it which uses it natively? I'm all for people learning English to facilitate the dialogue between countries and cultures but I think it's very noble and important to strive to preserve diversity, linguistically and culturally. D'un français à un autre, en anglais, sur un forum anglophone.

lucozade 9y ago
I entirely agree with you about the value of maintaining diversity but Iv was pretty much pointing out that Esperanto was vetoed in order to prevent an increase in diversity. French was the diplomatic lingua franca and the French delegates were working very hard to maintain that. English is now the lingua franca in many fields due to US hegemony as you say. Even though it's not due to any inherent virtue it's not, of itself, a bad thing. I'm not a big fan of Americanization (sic) but that's a slightly different thing from a common means of communication. The latter may well mean we have to suffer some of the former but I personally think it's worth it (don't tell my daughter I, like, said that OK?). Obviously this will never happen but now would be great time for the EU to adopt English as a common tongue, precisely because of Brexit. It'd clearly not be because of a cultural dominance within the EU and it would save a ton of money and a lot of wasted effort. I await the response of the Académie française with bated breath.
- simias 9y ago
  Yeah I agree with you. There's a difference between preserving diversity and trying to push your language down other people's throat. Clearly some of our laws and official posturing has more to do with the latter than the former. And obviously I won't oppose English becoming the language of the EU since the other obvious contender would be German and I can barely speak a lick of Deutsch!

titanix2 9y ago

I think it's a good thing we try to defend our language. With no international reach it would slowly be replaced by English even at home in some given fields (graduate studies, for example). That said, promoting French should not be equated with replacing other languages (like it was done with regional languages): it is a non-zero-sum game as people can learn multiples languages. So we should not only promote French as a second language for international communication but also work harder to learn foreign languages. In this framework, nor English nor Esperanto development are ennemies of French use.

Bakary 9y ago
Learning another language provides enough of a challenge that monolingual English will necessarily win out in international communication and science in the long term as it is the solution that provides the least friction. However, I fully agree that France should be careful to preserve its own linguistic culture lest they become like Sweden or the Netherlands in terms of getting dominated by Anglophone patterns of thought and expression.