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Yes, but how does this apply to intangible goods and services? I hope they're not planning on taxing that. It also seems like something that would be very diff

Yes, but how does this apply to intangible goods and services? I hope they're not planning on taxing that. It also seems like something that would be very difficult to implement and enforce, you know, considering the whole no-boundaries thing.

mudil 16y ago
You hope? You really hope for gov't to restraint itself? Good luck with that!
- itistoday 16y ago
  Did you skip your civics classes? What do you think gives you permission to say that? Did you forget that the government is run by elected officials? The entire Bill of Rights is an example of government restraining itself. The Constitution is an example of that.
  - drblast 16y ago
    Nothing gives him permission to say that; the U.S. was founded on the idea that you don't need anyone's permission to do things that don't harm other people. It's an inalienable right; you can't take it away. Our entire short history is a narrative of how the government erodes the Constitution and that basic idea at every opportunity. Hardly a model of restraint.
    - itistoday 16y ago
      "Nothing gives him permission to say that" Let's not nit-pick, it's an exercise in futility. By permission I meant he's not going to be killed or tossed in jail for saying that, that should be obvious. "Our entire short history is a narrative of how the government erodes the Constitution and that basic idea at every opportunity" Selective memory? Let's just forget all the examples where basic rights have been expanded to people. How about the restraint shown when women won the right to vote? Or when black people became officially recognized as people? It was in fact the government that enforced these laws and sent in military personnel to protect black kids from the angry white masses during desegregation. It has rules and procedures in place on what each branch of government can and cannot do. Etc. Sometimes they break these rules, yes, but that's getting back into the same nit-picking of whether mudil had "permission" to speak his mind. For the most part these rules are followed, and for the most part when they're broken there are consequences. The government created laws and amendments that clearly demonstrated restraint. How could it do this? Because our government, while imperfect, isn't (yet at least) completely in the hands of some aristocracy, and it has over the years both limited and expanded its powers. "The Government" is also not an individual entity with a single consciousness that's out to get you. It's a synecdoche that refers to a large group of _elected_ officials. If there's something wrong, the entire country shares the blame. To view it through a monochromatic lens is to ignore history and to be cynical for cynicism's sake.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  Sure. There is plenty of historical evidence to believe that restraint is likely. Top marginal tax rates have declined significantly over the last half century. If you believe that the government cannot restrain itself, I think you'll have difficulty accounting for that basic historical fact.
  - jquery 16y ago
    You say that governments restrain themselves and then say to look at history. When I look at history, I see a massive graveyard of failed states and empires. Even the surviving, "successful" states have had long, unpredictable periods of tyranny and suffering. Therefore I am concerned about government growth and encroachment, because it takes decades and the blood of heroes to recover lost freedoms, and by then I'll be old or dead. Better to be concerned now and look foolish than to dismiss concerns and be proven naive.
    - MichaelSalib 16y ago
      Better to be concerned now and look foolish than to dismiss concerns and be proven naive. What exactly does concern accomplish? Shouldn't you be "concerned" about space aliens invading Earth? Shouldn't you be concerned that your neighbor is a witch who has put a hex on you? I mean, it would much better to be "concerned" about that dire threat than to merely look foolish for ignoring it, right? This rhetoric about "concern" troubles me because it comes from nowhere. It is not based on a factual analysis about the growth of government power in recent history; it is just ahistorical venting of misplaced anxiety. The fact of the matter is that in the US, top marginal tax rates have declined significantly over the last half century. Government control of industrial policy has declined radically. Government commissions used to literally set prices for all kinds of goods. Airlines couldn't set their own routes and schedules while banks couldn't open branches in adjacent states. Now, all those regulations are not only gone but considered quaint and absurd. Does any of that history ameliorate your "concern" at all? Or is your concern resistant to facts?
      - jquery 16y ago
_delirium 16y ago
It's mostly the physical goods that seems the most wasteful to me, so I'd be happy to limit it to that. The way we currently have it set up, stuff gets cross-shipped: there are stockpiles of widgets in both A and B, but due to the sales tax weirdness, the person in A orders theirs from B, and the person in B orders theirs from A, resulting in things being flown back and forth across the country for no real reason. It also ends up being somewhat regressive, because well-off people buying expensive things are much more likely to order them off the internet than poor people buying cheaper things are--- so poor people pay their local sales tax, and well-off people avoid it. It's also logistically a bit easier to do it with physical goods, because you're necessarily shipping to an actual address.

mudil 16y ago

You hope? You really hope for gov't to restraint itself? Good luck with that!

itistoday 16y ago
Did you skip your civics classes? What do you think gives you permission to say that? Did you forget that the government is run by elected officials? The entire Bill of Rights is an example of government restraining itself. The Constitution is an example of that.
- drblast 16y ago
  Nothing gives him permission to say that; the U.S. was founded on the idea that you don't need anyone's permission to do things that don't harm other people. It's an inalienable right; you can't take it away. Our entire short history is a narrative of how the government erodes the Constitution and that basic idea at every opportunity. Hardly a model of restraint.
  - itistoday 16y ago
    "Nothing gives him permission to say that" Let's not nit-pick, it's an exercise in futility. By permission I meant he's not going to be killed or tossed in jail for saying that, that should be obvious. "Our entire short history is a narrative of how the government erodes the Constitution and that basic idea at every opportunity" Selective memory? Let's just forget all the examples where basic rights have been expanded to people. How about the restraint shown when women won the right to vote? Or when black people became officially recognized as people? It was in fact the government that enforced these laws and sent in military personnel to protect black kids from the angry white masses during desegregation. It has rules and procedures in place on what each branch of government can and cannot do. Etc. Sometimes they break these rules, yes, but that's getting back into the same nit-picking of whether mudil had "permission" to speak his mind. For the most part these rules are followed, and for the most part when they're broken there are consequences. The government created laws and amendments that clearly demonstrated restraint. How could it do this? Because our government, while imperfect, isn't (yet at least) completely in the hands of some aristocracy, and it has over the years both limited and expanded its powers. "The Government" is also not an individual entity with a single consciousness that's out to get you. It's a synecdoche that refers to a large group of _elected_ officials. If there's something wrong, the entire country shares the blame. To view it through a monochromatic lens is to ignore history and to be cynical for cynicism's sake.
MichaelSalib 16y ago
Sure. There is plenty of historical evidence to believe that restraint is likely. Top marginal tax rates have declined significantly over the last half century. If you believe that the government cannot restrain itself, I think you'll have difficulty accounting for that basic historical fact.
- jquery 16y ago
  You say that governments restrain themselves and then say to look at history. When I look at history, I see a massive graveyard of failed states and empires. Even the surviving, "successful" states have had long, unpredictable periods of tyranny and suffering. Therefore I am concerned about government growth and encroachment, because it takes decades and the blood of heroes to recover lost freedoms, and by then I'll be old or dead. Better to be concerned now and look foolish than to dismiss concerns and be proven naive.
  - MichaelSalib 16y ago
    Better to be concerned now and look foolish than to dismiss concerns and be proven naive. What exactly does concern accomplish? Shouldn't you be "concerned" about space aliens invading Earth? Shouldn't you be concerned that your neighbor is a witch who has put a hex on you? I mean, it would much better to be "concerned" about that dire threat than to merely look foolish for ignoring it, right? This rhetoric about "concern" troubles me because it comes from nowhere. It is not based on a factual analysis about the growth of government power in recent history; it is just ahistorical venting of misplaced anxiety. The fact of the matter is that in the US, top marginal tax rates have declined significantly over the last half century. Government control of industrial policy has declined radically. Government commissions used to literally set prices for all kinds of goods. Airlines couldn't set their own routes and schedules while banks couldn't open branches in adjacent states. Now, all those regulations are not only gone but considered quaint and absurd. Does any of that history ameliorate your "concern" at all? Or is your concern resistant to facts?
    - jquery 16y ago

_delirium 16y ago

It's mostly the physical goods that seems the most wasteful to me, so I'd be happy to limit it to that. The way we currently have it set up, stuff gets cross-shipped: there are stockpiles of widgets in both A and B, but due to the sales tax weirdness, the person in A orders theirs from B, and the person in B orders theirs from A, resulting in things being flown back and forth across the country for no real reason. It also ends up being somewhat regressive, because well-off people buying expensive things are much more likely to order them off the internet than poor people buying cheaper things are--- so poor people pay their local sales tax, and well-off people avoid it. It's also logistically a bit easier to do it with physical goods, because you're necessarily shipping to an actual address.