7 ms·

I'm having trouble understanding this... Could you help me think of an example where this type of privacy is useful, for non criminal reasons?

Jabanga 9y ago
Non-private transactions leak your entire transaction graph to the world. There are a plethora of reasons, many of them rooted in avoiding becoming a victim of crime, one would prefer their transactions be private.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  Or you could just use a traditional payment method that doesn't, by default, leak your entire transaction graph to the world.
  - Jabanga 9y ago
    Traditional payment methods can't do certain things, like send money to someone in another country for a fee of $0.05 in a matter of a minute, or make a payment on a website without disclosing to them your personal details. You may also not feel comfortable with your bank or government knowing all of your private financial interactions. There is no reason to blindly trust your bank or government to that extent.
    - gnopgnip 9y ago
      Paypal can do both of those
      - Klathmon 9y ago
        Paypal can also close your account at the drop of a hat, and has a very nice long list of things you can't do with your money when it's connected to paypal (a list of things which will get your account close and your money confiscated in some areas).
        TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
        You can also throw stupendous quantities of cryptocurrency in the bin accidentally. So there's that. Trade offs I guess.
      - Jabanga 9y ago
        PayPal doesn't work globally.
        TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
        Neither does Bitcoin
        Jabanga 9y ago
        In which country do cryptocurrencies not work in? They work in every country in the world. They are used a lot in Venezuela for example.
        TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
        According to this[1] around half the people on Earth don't have internet access. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_access https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_access
    - joosters 9y ago
      Bitcoin hasn't been fast or cheap for a very long time, whereas many 'traditional payment methods' let people send money instantly for free.
      - kbenson 9y ago
        > whereas many 'traditional payment methods' let people send money instantly for free. Well, not really free. There's a cost associated, but it may not be initially applied to the consumer. It makes it's way through in some way though, such as an increased service cost. The most transparent industry for this is likely gas stations, which in the U.S. at least (and even then I can only comment on the regions I've observed it), they will quote different prices per gallon for cash and for credit/debit, which is them pushing the cost through to the consumer transparently. This was actually disallowed by card processing agreements in the past, because card processors didn't want the fees hampering acceptance of charge cards.
  - literallycancer 9y ago
    Some people need to use bitcoin to avoid capital controls, prohibitively high transaction costs or other obstacles. Just because you don't think it's useful doesn't mean no one does.
kbenson 9y ago
Imagine a world where the street taco vendor that accepted your money gets you bank transaction history since you opened the account. That's bitcoin. Privacy is important because wallet anonymity is really the only privacy you have, and once it's gone there's no getting it back, and it's retroactive. Mixing services add a buffer.
- wolco 9y ago
  This is a great point not understood by many. Bitcoin keeps a history of all transactions. If you identify yourself during a transaction your history is exposed. Mixing services help.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deadbunny 9y ago
  Except that's mitigated with a HD wallet, unless you're reusing addresses.
- ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
  Thank you. That is exactly the type of response I was hoping for.
wcummings 9y ago
Businesses don't want their books to be public. Could even be an SEC violation if they leaked certain info through the blockchain. Some kind of greater anonymity will be required for business adoption, but that could mean something off-chain other than a mixer.
pmarreck 9y ago
A really good article on privacy in general that needs to be read by everyone: https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.html https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.htm... But regarding cryptocurrencies specifically: Imagine an organization in one of the 74 countries where simply being homosexual is still illegal (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/gay-lesbian-bisexual-relationships-illegal-in-74-countries-a7033666.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/gay-lesbian-bisexual...) that tries to save them from being prosecuted by the government. This may require some anonymous cash. Not all laws are equally just across time and space. The right to meet in secret and conduct transactions in secret aids transitions.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  It's ironic that your argument against associating privacy with criminality is citing an example where privacy is seen as morally necessary specifically because the acts one wishes to support have been criminalized. It seems to me your problem is more with the association between criminality and moral wrongdoing than that between privacy and criminality.
  - pmarreck 9y ago
    Who is going to be the perfectly moral individual or organization who will be able to fairly distinguish between that which is moral but illegal and that which is immoral and illegal? The answer of course is that no such entity exists nor will exist. And you cannot stop the latter entirely without also halting the former, and halting the former is arguably worse (but that's debatable, especially if your opening argument is "Let's take mass child slave trafficking.")

Jabanga 9y ago

Non-private transactions leak your entire transaction graph to the world. There are a plethora of reasons, many of them rooted in avoiding becoming a victim of crime, one would prefer their transactions be private.

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
Or you could just use a traditional payment method that doesn't, by default, leak your entire transaction graph to the world.
- Jabanga 9y ago
  Traditional payment methods can't do certain things, like send money to someone in another country for a fee of $0.05 in a matter of a minute, or make a payment on a website without disclosing to them your personal details. You may also not feel comfortable with your bank or government knowing all of your private financial interactions. There is no reason to blindly trust your bank or government to that extent.
  - gnopgnip 9y ago
    Paypal can do both of those
    - Klathmon 9y ago
      Paypal can also close your account at the drop of a hat, and has a very nice long list of things you can't do with your money when it's connected to paypal (a list of things which will get your account close and your money confiscated in some areas).
      - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
        You can also throw stupendous quantities of cryptocurrency in the bin accidentally. So there's that. Trade offs I guess.
    - Jabanga 9y ago
      PayPal doesn't work globally.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
        Neither does Bitcoin
        Jabanga 9y ago
        In which country do cryptocurrencies not work in? They work in every country in the world. They are used a lot in Venezuela for example.
        TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
        According to this[1] around half the people on Earth don't have internet access. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_access https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_access
  - joosters 9y ago
    Bitcoin hasn't been fast or cheap for a very long time, whereas many 'traditional payment methods' let people send money instantly for free.
    - kbenson 9y ago
      > whereas many 'traditional payment methods' let people send money instantly for free. Well, not really free. There's a cost associated, but it may not be initially applied to the consumer. It makes it's way through in some way though, such as an increased service cost. The most transparent industry for this is likely gas stations, which in the U.S. at least (and even then I can only comment on the regions I've observed it), they will quote different prices per gallon for cash and for credit/debit, which is them pushing the cost through to the consumer transparently. This was actually disallowed by card processing agreements in the past, because card processors didn't want the fees hampering acceptance of charge cards.
- literallycancer 9y ago
  Some people need to use bitcoin to avoid capital controls, prohibitively high transaction costs or other obstacles. Just because you don't think it's useful doesn't mean no one does.

kbenson 9y ago

Imagine a world where the street taco vendor that accepted your money gets you bank transaction history since you opened the account. That's bitcoin. Privacy is important because wallet anonymity is really the only privacy you have, and once it's gone there's no getting it back, and it's retroactive. Mixing services add a buffer.

wolco 9y ago
This is a great point not understood by many. Bitcoin keeps a history of all transactions. If you identify yourself during a transaction your history is exposed. Mixing services help.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
deadbunny 9y ago
Except that's mitigated with a HD wallet, unless you're reusing addresses.
ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
Thank you. That is exactly the type of response I was hoping for.

wcummings 9y ago

Businesses don't want their books to be public. Could even be an SEC violation if they leaked certain info through the blockchain. Some kind of greater anonymity will be required for business adoption, but that could mean something off-chain other than a mixer.

pmarreck 9y ago

A really good article on privacy in general that needs to be read by everyone: https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.html https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.htm... But regarding cryptocurrencies specifically: Imagine an organization in one of the 74 countries where simply being homosexual is still illegal (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/gay-lesbian-bisexual-relationships-illegal-in-74-countries-a7033666.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/gay-lesbian-bisexual...) that tries to save them from being prosecuted by the government. This may require some anonymous cash. Not all laws are equally just across time and space. The right to meet in secret and conduct transactions in secret aids transitions.

dragonwriter 9y ago
It's ironic that your argument against associating privacy with criminality is citing an example where privacy is seen as morally necessary specifically because the acts one wishes to support have been criminalized. It seems to me your problem is more with the association between criminality and moral wrongdoing than that between privacy and criminality.
- pmarreck 9y ago
  Who is going to be the perfectly moral individual or organization who will be able to fairly distinguish between that which is moral but illegal and that which is immoral and illegal? The answer of course is that no such entity exists nor will exist. And you cannot stop the latter entirely without also halting the former, and halting the former is arguably worse (but that's debatable, especially if your opening argument is "Let's take mass child slave trafficking.")