4 ms·

Yes, you would possibly need to get a job for a few years. 18 is an arbitrary number but there needs to be a limit, and there will always be an example of a per

Yes, you would possibly need to get a job for a few years. 18 is an arbitrary number but there needs to be a limit, and there will always be an example of a person who falls into this 'tragic' category. Rationale: to prevent a massive influx of immigrants draining the treasury for free income, some of which they would probably send home, too. That wouldn't sit well with many people, nor be sustainable. There will of course, be people like in the situation you mentioned who feel marginally cheated, at least for a brief time.

klodolph 9y ago
This is unconscionable, frankly, I'm appalled that someone could display such a cavalier attitude towards "tragic" stories. Nobody is disputing your stated goal, let us agree on that point. First of all, "feeling cheated" is inaccurate. In an economic environment where everyone has UBI and there is no minimum wage/SSI/SSDI/etc, depriving someone of UBI makes them unable to provide for themselves unless they are skilled and/or lucky. It's common to find a low paying job fresh out of college. Let's say you get a $30k salaried job. With UBI, that might be a $10k salaried job with $20k UBI. Take away UBI and now you're trying to afford housing in a market where the most financially destitute earn twice what you make. Second of all, immigration is a big part of what makes this country great and what sense does it make to pay immigrants less merely because they're immigrants? If they can do the same job, they should get the same pay, not just for moral but also for economic reasons. You can fix the system but if you start from the assumption that there is a simple solution (18 year minimum) for a complex problem, you will be consistently disappointed.
- lend000 9y ago
  It's not a simple issue, but there are many complexities you seem to have overlooked. I believe in a high level of mobility and freedom in immigration, compared to the current limits, at least. I'm curious, what do you think would happen if we gave the UBI out to everyone immediately? To spell it out: we cannot afford to produce a UBI for the entire world, but if everyone is able to immigrate to America and receive America's UBI, we will have several billion of the world's poorest knocking on our door. The two are mutually exclusive in the real world, in which we both live. What is your solution? Yes, you are correct that long term citizens would have higher financial negotiating power than newer citizens who do not yet qualify. Does it need to be 18 years? Of course not -- the point of that number was that you should be an adult to receive a UBI. In our current immigration system, it may be difficult enough to get citizenship that perhaps the only requirement should be that you're an adult citizen. However, the most important takeaway for you is that if you just give away a UBI to every person that sets foot in America, immediately, you will either: 1. make it near impossible to immigrate to the US due to increased demand from people who were only persuaded by the UBI (in our current system) or 2. open the floodgates to unsustainable immigration that will drain more from the UBI pool than the system can support (in a higher mobility system, which I otherwise support) And in either case, you will have immense capital flight to other countries, which is obviously not in America's best interest. I'm open to suggestions on how to address immigration with a UBI; I don't deny that it's one of, if not the primary shortcoming without an obvious solution for UBI.
  - c22 9y ago
    But it's not like all those people would stay in their home countries and just siphon away all our sweet sweet ubi hoard. These people would become US citizens and their societal output would become part of the country's aggregate output, some of which presumably funds the UBI program. As long as we don't assume people from economically disadvantaged regions are inherently incapable of providing as much value as individuals in advantaged regions then the only way allowing immigration is unsustainable is if UBI itself is unsustainable.
  - klodolph 9y ago
    > It's not a simple issue, but there are many complexities you seem to have overlooked. Funny, that was exactly my reaction when to your comment. > I'm curious, what do you think would happen if we gave the UBI out to everyone immediately? I'm confused why you're even bringing this up, since we agree this wouldn't work. If that's the position you're arguing against it's a straw man. I'm interested in UBI, but I think we'd need a system that isn't as deeply and fundamentally flawed as the "wait N years" system. I think it's a complicated enough issue that I have honestly no idea how to tackle it, so the comment that I am "overlooking" complexities seems completely out of left field. Anything that cuts off all the people on SSI is a non-starter.
    - lend000 9y ago
      > I'm confused why you're even bringing this up, since we agree this wouldn't work. > Anything that cuts off all the people on SSI is a non-starter. I didn't realize you were anti-UBI altogether. Is this the only reason you are anti-UBI then? But no ideas on how to improve it? And you believe the current welfare complex is superior? Regardless, I would argue that even with an X-year rule to curb UBI-related immigration, a UBI would be vastly superior to our current system. If the income is truly basic, you have not significantly adjusted demand in the economy against what is already being purchased (to raise prices, as you mentioned) in the "necessity" category, specifically, and the reduced welfare in other areas may actually serve to bring artificial demand down in some cases (e.g. instead of feeling obligated to spend all of your food stamps because you can't use them for something else, people may be more focused on what they need). Yes, the currently homeless will also have money to compete with immigrants for inexpensive housing, but I don't think the formerly homeless would be complaining about that. Will it be harder to be an immigrant than a US citizen? Yes, that has and will always be the case for numerous reasons -- however, I don't think the financial effect of a UBI creates this unlivable economy you describe, and it provides a bright future to look forward to. Always looking at ways to refine my policy ideas, so thank you for pointing out how extreme 18 years is given how long it already takes to become a citizen. However, it's always nice to see complaints that follow up with proposed solutions, which is unfortunately uncommon on HN political threads.

klodolph 9y ago

This is unconscionable, frankly, I'm appalled that someone could display such a cavalier attitude towards "tragic" stories. Nobody is disputing your stated goal, let us agree on that point. First of all, "feeling cheated" is inaccurate. In an economic environment where everyone has UBI and there is no minimum wage/SSI/SSDI/etc, depriving someone of UBI makes them unable to provide for themselves unless they are skilled and/or lucky. It's common to find a low paying job fresh out of college. Let's say you get a $30k salaried job. With UBI, that might be a $10k salaried job with $20k UBI. Take away UBI and now you're trying to afford housing in a market where the most financially destitute earn twice what you make. Second of all, immigration is a big part of what makes this country great and what sense does it make to pay immigrants less merely because they're immigrants? If they can do the same job, they should get the same pay, not just for moral but also for economic reasons. You can fix the system but if you start from the assumption that there is a simple solution (18 year minimum) for a complex problem, you will be consistently disappointed.

lend000 9y ago
It's not a simple issue, but there are many complexities you seem to have overlooked. I believe in a high level of mobility and freedom in immigration, compared to the current limits, at least. I'm curious, what do you think would happen if we gave the UBI out to everyone immediately? To spell it out: we cannot afford to produce a UBI for the entire world, but if everyone is able to immigrate to America and receive America's UBI, we will have several billion of the world's poorest knocking on our door. The two are mutually exclusive in the real world, in which we both live. What is your solution? Yes, you are correct that long term citizens would have higher financial negotiating power than newer citizens who do not yet qualify. Does it need to be 18 years? Of course not -- the point of that number was that you should be an adult to receive a UBI. In our current immigration system, it may be difficult enough to get citizenship that perhaps the only requirement should be that you're an adult citizen. However, the most important takeaway for you is that if you just give away a UBI to every person that sets foot in America, immediately, you will either: 1. make it near impossible to immigrate to the US due to increased demand from people who were only persuaded by the UBI (in our current system) or 2. open the floodgates to unsustainable immigration that will drain more from the UBI pool than the system can support (in a higher mobility system, which I otherwise support) And in either case, you will have immense capital flight to other countries, which is obviously not in America's best interest. I'm open to suggestions on how to address immigration with a UBI; I don't deny that it's one of, if not the primary shortcoming without an obvious solution for UBI.
- c22 9y ago
  But it's not like all those people would stay in their home countries and just siphon away all our sweet sweet ubi hoard. These people would become US citizens and their societal output would become part of the country's aggregate output, some of which presumably funds the UBI program. As long as we don't assume people from economically disadvantaged regions are inherently incapable of providing as much value as individuals in advantaged regions then the only way allowing immigration is unsustainable is if UBI itself is unsustainable.
- klodolph 9y ago
  > It's not a simple issue, but there are many complexities you seem to have overlooked. Funny, that was exactly my reaction when to your comment. > I'm curious, what do you think would happen if we gave the UBI out to everyone immediately? I'm confused why you're even bringing this up, since we agree this wouldn't work. If that's the position you're arguing against it's a straw man. I'm interested in UBI, but I think we'd need a system that isn't as deeply and fundamentally flawed as the "wait N years" system. I think it's a complicated enough issue that I have honestly no idea how to tackle it, so the comment that I am "overlooking" complexities seems completely out of left field. Anything that cuts off all the people on SSI is a non-starter.
  - lend000 9y ago
    > I'm confused why you're even bringing this up, since we agree this wouldn't work. > Anything that cuts off all the people on SSI is a non-starter. I didn't realize you were anti-UBI altogether. Is this the only reason you are anti-UBI then? But no ideas on how to improve it? And you believe the current welfare complex is superior? Regardless, I would argue that even with an X-year rule to curb UBI-related immigration, a UBI would be vastly superior to our current system. If the income is truly basic, you have not significantly adjusted demand in the economy against what is already being purchased (to raise prices, as you mentioned) in the "necessity" category, specifically, and the reduced welfare in other areas may actually serve to bring artificial demand down in some cases (e.g. instead of feeling obligated to spend all of your food stamps because you can't use them for something else, people may be more focused on what they need). Yes, the currently homeless will also have money to compete with immigrants for inexpensive housing, but I don't think the formerly homeless would be complaining about that. Will it be harder to be an immigrant than a US citizen? Yes, that has and will always be the case for numerous reasons -- however, I don't think the financial effect of a UBI creates this unlivable economy you describe, and it provides a bright future to look forward to. Always looking at ways to refine my policy ideas, so thank you for pointing out how extreme 18 years is given how long it already takes to become a citizen. However, it's always nice to see complaints that follow up with proposed solutions, which is unfortunately uncommon on HN political threads.