5 ms·

Neighboring Atherton has a land use goal of 'preserv[ing] the Town's character as a scenic, rural, thickly wooded residential area with abundant open space.'

sokoloff 9y ago
Should the residents of the town of Atherton be able to vote and enact policies on how Atherton should evolve? I think they should.
- wbl 9y ago
  When every city in the bay thinks that way we get a situation where only the lucky get to live here.
  - Danihan 9y ago
    And that's a bad thing why? Why shouldn't there be nice, exclusive areas to live in, just like there are exclusive schools to attend and exclusive companies to work for?
    - wbl 9y ago
      It's one thing to have Central Park West. It's another to have an entire region whose service workers commute from 3 hours away, whose public schools are off-limits to the poor, whose landlords got rich off of others labor. I see we welcome immigrants sign on the homes of people who have driven out anyone making less then $100,000 a year. It's shocking to see so many want to slam the doors of opportunity and a better life in the face of the less fortunate. Go have your enclave, but don't ask the state to help pay for your schools, roads, and pension costs while higher education support is massively cut.
      - Danihan 9y ago
        >I see we welcome immigrants sign on the homes of people who have driven out anyone making less then $100,000 a year. That is why so many working class people see "big city" liberals as hypocrites. >but don't ask the state to help pay for your schools, roads, and pension costs while higher education support is massively cut. I'm not seeing the connection here.
        wbl 9y ago
        Yes, Berkeley residents who downzone are hypocrits. That's the point I'm making. As for money if you live in CA you would know the UC system faces funding challenges while millions from the state to fund road maintenence in Marin and Atherton.
    - akgerber 9y ago
      Because it's unjust, as these 'nice, exclusive areas' are the ones with the best access to employment and educational opportunities. And it creates an urban form that induces long, high-emission solo driver commutes and fewer residents in a part of the country that requires very little HVAC— both of which lead to a lot of climate change. And it maintains a segregated society, racially and otherwise, where the wealthy may ignore social problems. And it's likely a significant drag on American GDP. So, for all these reasons— it is an abuse of the a local government's police power to make it illegal to build apartment buildings.
      - sokoloff 9y ago
        I believe that zoning is a proper matter for local governments. If it's not a local matter, it seems that governmental zoning has to either not exist or become a state or federal matter. I sure don't want the feds zoning my city, nor do I want the state doing it. I also don't want to live in a world of no zoning. It's a pain that I'd have to appear before the zoning board to get a variance for a larger garage on my property, but the alternatives are far worse, I think, and I like the idea that fellow city residents are the ones deciding our zoning and variance process. What concretely do you propose to effect a fix for the problem that you see?
        akgerber 9y ago
        In much of the world, zoning is enacted at a regional or national level, and serves wider social interests rather than a small group's desire to decide what their neighbors look like. These areas generally have significantly more reasonable housing prices than the Bay Area, as well as higher mass-transit usage. http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html https://www.gtai.de/GTAI/Navigation/EN/Invest/Investment-guide/The-legal-framework/planning-and-building,t=construction-laws,did=6832.html https://www.gtai.de/GTAI/Navigation/EN/Invest/Investment-gui... Why don't you want the federal or state government making decisions on zoning law?
      - Danihan 9y ago
        Until everyone has perfectly identical IQs, attractiveness, charisma, strength, agility and luck, some things will be perceived as economically unjust. In other words, it will always be this way. Life is a competition for resources and genetic legacy, there are always going to be winners and losers. >wealthy may ignore social problems Yes, that's one of the best parts of being wealthy. Being able to enjoy life without constantly worrying about other people's problems. >And it's likely a significant drag on American GDP. Doubtful. Silicon Valley is pretty segregated and does pretty damn well GDP-wise. >it is an abuse of the a local government's police power to make it illegal to build apartment buildings. Zoning laws are police abuse? That's one I haven't heard before. You'd want no government intervention then? Can we build miles and miles of structures like the Oakland Ghost Ship in your fantasy society?

sokoloff 9y ago

Should the residents of the town of Atherton be able to vote and enact policies on how Atherton should evolve? I think they should.

wbl 9y ago
When every city in the bay thinks that way we get a situation where only the lucky get to live here.
- Danihan 9y ago
  And that's a bad thing why? Why shouldn't there be nice, exclusive areas to live in, just like there are exclusive schools to attend and exclusive companies to work for?
  - wbl 9y ago
    It's one thing to have Central Park West. It's another to have an entire region whose service workers commute from 3 hours away, whose public schools are off-limits to the poor, whose landlords got rich off of others labor. I see we welcome immigrants sign on the homes of people who have driven out anyone making less then $100,000 a year. It's shocking to see so many want to slam the doors of opportunity and a better life in the face of the less fortunate. Go have your enclave, but don't ask the state to help pay for your schools, roads, and pension costs while higher education support is massively cut.
    - Danihan 9y ago
      >I see we welcome immigrants sign on the homes of people who have driven out anyone making less then $100,000 a year. That is why so many working class people see "big city" liberals as hypocrites. >but don't ask the state to help pay for your schools, roads, and pension costs while higher education support is massively cut. I'm not seeing the connection here.
      - wbl 9y ago
        Yes, Berkeley residents who downzone are hypocrits. That's the point I'm making. As for money if you live in CA you would know the UC system faces funding challenges while millions from the state to fund road maintenence in Marin and Atherton.
  - akgerber 9y ago
    Because it's unjust, as these 'nice, exclusive areas' are the ones with the best access to employment and educational opportunities. And it creates an urban form that induces long, high-emission solo driver commutes and fewer residents in a part of the country that requires very little HVAC— both of which lead to a lot of climate change. And it maintains a segregated society, racially and otherwise, where the wealthy may ignore social problems. And it's likely a significant drag on American GDP. So, for all these reasons— it is an abuse of the a local government's police power to make it illegal to build apartment buildings.
    - sokoloff 9y ago
      I believe that zoning is a proper matter for local governments. If it's not a local matter, it seems that governmental zoning has to either not exist or become a state or federal matter. I sure don't want the feds zoning my city, nor do I want the state doing it. I also don't want to live in a world of no zoning. It's a pain that I'd have to appear before the zoning board to get a variance for a larger garage on my property, but the alternatives are far worse, I think, and I like the idea that fellow city residents are the ones deciding our zoning and variance process. What concretely do you propose to effect a fix for the problem that you see?
      - akgerber 9y ago
        In much of the world, zoning is enacted at a regional or national level, and serves wider social interests rather than a small group's desire to decide what their neighbors look like. These areas generally have significantly more reasonable housing prices than the Bay Area, as well as higher mass-transit usage. http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html https://www.gtai.de/GTAI/Navigation/EN/Invest/Investment-guide/The-legal-framework/planning-and-building,t=construction-laws,did=6832.html https://www.gtai.de/GTAI/Navigation/EN/Invest/Investment-gui... Why don't you want the federal or state government making decisions on zoning law?
    - Danihan 9y ago
      Until everyone has perfectly identical IQs, attractiveness, charisma, strength, agility and luck, some things will be perceived as economically unjust. In other words, it will always be this way. Life is a competition for resources and genetic legacy, there are always going to be winners and losers. >wealthy may ignore social problems Yes, that's one of the best parts of being wealthy. Being able to enjoy life without constantly worrying about other people's problems. >And it's likely a significant drag on American GDP. Doubtful. Silicon Valley is pretty segregated and does pretty damn well GDP-wise. >it is an abuse of the a local government's police power to make it illegal to build apartment buildings. Zoning laws are police abuse? That's one I haven't heard before. You'd want no government intervention then? Can we build miles and miles of structures like the Oakland Ghost Ship in your fantasy society?