6 ms·

Theft of copyrighted material, if bfirsh's claim of having the tool upload _all of the source code on his computer_ without asking about it. Maybe even corpora

by efdee 9y ago

Theft of copyrighted material, if bfirsh's claim of having the tool upload _all of the source code on his computer_ without asking about it. Maybe even corporate espionage.

jonathanstrange 9y ago
> Theft of copyrighted material Copyright infringement is not theft. These are two completely different issues. When data is copied it is not taken away from the owner like when physical goods are stolen. Secondary damages may or may not occur, but they are not the same as depriving someone of a good. As an analogy, I wouldn't steal a car, but I surely would copy a car if I could do so by simply pressing a button...
- xg15 9y ago
  Both are punishable crimes though, so I don't see what difference the point makes
  - Spoom 9y ago
    The primary difference is that copyright infringement is a civil offense, not a criminal one, so nobody would be "going to prison".
    - will_brown 9y ago
      Copyright Infringement is an act, and at least here in the US, an act which both criminal and civil laws provides specific penalties/remedies. On the criminal side, obviously, one of the penalties is imprisonment.
      - Spoom 9y ago
        Ah, I was unfamiliar with criminal penalties for copyright infringement. Could you go ahead and link me to the relevant US Code text that provides for such penalties?
        yellowapple 9y ago
        https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1204 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1204 This happens to be the one under which Kite would fall (since they're infringing copyright for "commercial advantage").
        dungle6 9y ago
        Well I feel old as shit now. Back when DVDs and VHS tapes were a thing we were all indoctrinated by a big blazing "FBI Warning" of the penalties up to 5 years imprisonment and $250,000 fine.
    - yellowapple 9y ago
      That still leaves corporate espionage, which (last I checked) is a very severe offense. If that "source code" contained significantly-sensitive data (like medical info or info about legal cases), then there's a giant can of worms right there (and each of those worms has a surname of "Felony").
    - s73ver 9y ago
      There is such a thing, in the US at least, as criminal copyright infringement.
- sloppycee 9y ago
  No, but if that copyright material contained trade secrets then it is criminal.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    And if it contained gold, it's actual theft. But that's about as unlikely as the code containing trade secrets. Plus: - For copyright infringement, they'd need to actually redistribute the code. Using it for machine learning and distributing short snippets wouldn't be copyright infringement. - For that trade secret stuff you'd need to prove intent.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      For copyright infringement, they'd need to actually redistribute the code. IANAL, but I don't think so. In MAI v. Peak[1], the court determined that even loading a program from disk to RAM was a copy, and therefore infringing without a license. Congress has since then added a specific exception for "Machine maintenance and repair", but that's it. Copying from a remote machine and storing it in their disks should certainly qualify. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAI_Systems_Corp._v._Peak_Computer,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAI_Systems_Corp._v._Peak_Comp....
    - sloppycee 9y ago
      > But that's about as unlikely as the code containing trade secrets. Unpublished code, is itself a trade secret. Even just the processes, procedures, organisation, tooling, library use, etc in the code provides a competitive advantage. i.e. The 'metadata' is also a trade secret. The only intent you'd need to prove is that the accused is using the trade secret to the 'economic benefit of anyone other than the owner'. It seems obvious that Kite is training a proprietary ML algorithm, with trade secrets, for their own economic benefit.
- raverbashing 9y ago
  Nuh huh It's one thing to infringe on the copyright of a public work Another, very different thing is to copy something that's not public and might be considered IP or a trade secret
- mort96 9y ago
  This isn't necessarily only about copyright infringement (though it's definitely that too). If some of the source code on your machine contain sensitive information, like API keys, database passwords, etc. Legally, the word "theft" isn't only used when one party loses anything; a victim of identity theft doesn't lose their identity, yet we don't call it "identity infringement". I'm not familiar enough with US law to know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if the word "theft" is used somewhere for obtaining sensitive information without permission.

by efdee 9y ago

Theft of copyrighted material, if bfirsh's claim of having the tool upload _all of the source code on his computer_ without asking about it. Maybe even corporate espionage.

jonathanstrange 9y ago

> Theft of copyrighted material Copyright infringement is not theft. These are two completely different issues. When data is copied it is not taken away from the owner like when physical goods are stolen. Secondary damages may or may not occur, but they are not the same as depriving someone of a good. As an analogy, I wouldn't steal a car, but I surely would copy a car if I could do so by simply pressing a button...

xg15 9y ago
Both are punishable crimes though, so I don't see what difference the point makes
- Spoom 9y ago
  The primary difference is that copyright infringement is a civil offense, not a criminal one, so nobody would be "going to prison".
  - will_brown 9y ago
    Copyright Infringement is an act, and at least here in the US, an act which both criminal and civil laws provides specific penalties/remedies. On the criminal side, obviously, one of the penalties is imprisonment.
    - Spoom 9y ago
      Ah, I was unfamiliar with criminal penalties for copyright infringement. Could you go ahead and link me to the relevant US Code text that provides for such penalties?
      - yellowapple 9y ago
        https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1204 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1204 This happens to be the one under which Kite would fall (since they're infringing copyright for "commercial advantage").
      - dungle6 9y ago
        Well I feel old as shit now. Back when DVDs and VHS tapes were a thing we were all indoctrinated by a big blazing "FBI Warning" of the penalties up to 5 years imprisonment and $250,000 fine.
  - yellowapple 9y ago
    That still leaves corporate espionage, which (last I checked) is a very severe offense. If that "source code" contained significantly-sensitive data (like medical info or info about legal cases), then there's a giant can of worms right there (and each of those worms has a surname of "Felony").
  - s73ver 9y ago
    There is such a thing, in the US at least, as criminal copyright infringement.
sloppycee 9y ago
No, but if that copyright material contained trade secrets then it is criminal.
- matt4077 9y ago
  And if it contained gold, it's actual theft. But that's about as unlikely as the code containing trade secrets. Plus: - For copyright infringement, they'd need to actually redistribute the code. Using it for machine learning and distributing short snippets wouldn't be copyright infringement. - For that trade secret stuff you'd need to prove intent.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    For copyright infringement, they'd need to actually redistribute the code. IANAL, but I don't think so. In MAI v. Peak[1], the court determined that even loading a program from disk to RAM was a copy, and therefore infringing without a license. Congress has since then added a specific exception for "Machine maintenance and repair", but that's it. Copying from a remote machine and storing it in their disks should certainly qualify. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAI_Systems_Corp._v._Peak_Computer,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAI_Systems_Corp._v._Peak_Comp....
  - sloppycee 9y ago
    > But that's about as unlikely as the code containing trade secrets. Unpublished code, is itself a trade secret. Even just the processes, procedures, organisation, tooling, library use, etc in the code provides a competitive advantage. i.e. The 'metadata' is also a trade secret. The only intent you'd need to prove is that the accused is using the trade secret to the 'economic benefit of anyone other than the owner'. It seems obvious that Kite is training a proprietary ML algorithm, with trade secrets, for their own economic benefit.
raverbashing 9y ago
Nuh huh It's one thing to infringe on the copyright of a public work Another, very different thing is to copy something that's not public and might be considered IP or a trade secret
mort96 9y ago
This isn't necessarily only about copyright infringement (though it's definitely that too). If some of the source code on your machine contain sensitive information, like API keys, database passwords, etc. Legally, the word "theft" isn't only used when one party loses anything; a victim of identity theft doesn't lose their identity, yet we don't call it "identity infringement". I'm not familiar enough with US law to know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if the word "theft" is used somewhere for obtaining sensitive information without permission.