6 ms·

Yep, a few people were frowning, especially since the democracy is in pretty bad shape in Hungary right know. However, in this case it works: it will be seen an

by atleta 9y ago

Yep, a few people were frowning, especially since the democracy is in pretty bad shape in Hungary right know. However, in this case it works: it will be seen and remembered longer this way. Also, there were quite heated discussions on facebook, the case received a lot of attention even from non-tech people, the guy will be represented by the lawyers of a human rights association, etc. And actually there will be a protest in front of the office of the Public Transport Authority tomorrow. But I think in this case, the online petitioning worked pretty well.

ahoka 9y ago
"democracy is in pretty bad shape in Hungary right know" I thought that Hungary has a democratically elected government. Did I miss something?
- PeterisP 9y ago
  There's a saying that democracy is not when a government gets installed by fair elections, democracy is when a government gets removed by fair elections. Hitler was democratically elected as well, that is not sufficient to label his regime as democracy.
  - praptak 9y ago
    > Hitler was democratically elected as well No he wasn't, it is not that simple. His party at that time had no majority despite being the largest one. He got appointed chancellor not by democratic vote but by backroom negotiations - mostly because he was expected to be easy to control. From this state he went for the dictatorship but again not by democratic election but rather by scaring the other parties into voting him the Enabling Act in 1933 after the supposedly communist-inspired Reichstag Fire.
- praptak 9y ago
  "Democratically elected government" does not imply "democracy is not in bad shape".
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    We have several examples of such situations right now.
  - bigbugbag 9y ago
    "Democratically elected government" implies that it is not a democracy but anything from aristocraty to plutocracy with q few things inbetween such as kleptocracy, oligarchy, etc. The very definition of election means aristocracy. To have a democracy it requires sortition instead.
- SmellyGeekBoy 9y ago
  So does Russia. And many African countries.
- tom_mellior 9y ago
  Here's Human Rights Watch on Hungary: https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/hungary https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/hungary Much of it focuses on the treatment of refugees, but you'll also find information about the suppression of free speech and the like. A "democratically elected government" in a country where the opposition is suppressed is not that democratically elected after all.
  - ahoka 9y ago
    Only the sentence about refugees is true, but that has nothing to do with democracy. <tinfoil>Financier and philanthropist George Soros of the Open Society Foundation announced in 2010 his intention to grant US $100 million to HRW over a period of ten years to help it expand its efforts internationally.</tinfoil>
    - tom_mellior 9y ago
      > <tinfoil> Ah, I see. Presumably he also finances... Freedom House: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2015/hungary https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2015/hungary The International Press Institute: https://ipi.media/civil-defamation-and-media-freedom-in-hungary/ https://ipi.media/civil-defamation-and-media-freedom-in-hung... The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/09/opinion/hungarys-crackdown-on-the-press.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/09/opinion/hungarys-crackdow... The US government: https://hu.usembassy.gov/hungary-media-freedom-press-statement-u-s-department-state/ https://hu.usembassy.gov/hungary-media-freedom-press-stateme... The LA Times: http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-hungary-media-freedom-20201010-story.html http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-hungary-media-free...
- atleta 9y ago
  Yes, you probably missed a few lessons in high school. When I went there, I was taught that separation of powers is an important element, amongst others. This clearly does not apply to Hungary anymore, as the highest juridical power is an inner circle person (Tunde Hando), other important positions have also been filled with Fidesz's (the ruling party) people without any consensus with the opposition. This includes the constitutional court, the president of the republic (wait, what? Hungary is not even a republic anymore :) ). The police got and executed on direct commands from the PM. But if you don't like that, here's a short excerpt from Wikipedia: "No consensus exists on how to define democracy, but legal equality, political freedom and rule of law have been identified as important characteristics."[1] We don't have any of these. Or, to put it in an easier to digest way: all of these have been regularly (and increasingly) violated by the govt. As probably a fellow Hungarian who likes (is emotionally attached to) this government, I understand you are OK with it, but it doesn't make the current system any more democratic. Fun fact: the Kadar system called itself democratic too. But it's judged from the outside, for obvious reasons. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Characteristics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Characteristics
bigbugbag 9y ago
As every other country on earth right now, Hungary is not a democracy at all. So there's that. At some point we need to understand the novlang used here, by squatting the word democracy to label the political system based on elections, people in power manage to prevent to emergence of an actual democracy. Please stop misusing this word so we have a better chance of actually having a democracy somwhere at some point in the future.
- willbw 9y ago
  A practical democracy must be an abstraction of a pure, idealistic democracy. You cannot have millions of people deciding on every issue. Democratically elected representatives are one way we can do this. There may be better ways of doing things but it doesn't make democracies not democracies.
  - bb611 9y ago
    > You cannot have millions of people deciding on every issue. From a technical perspective, this is clearly untrue.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > From a technical perspective, this is clearly untrue. It's impossible if you take “every issue” literally, as you are multiplying the number of pdecisions that must be made by each participant per unit of time so much that the time to consider them is non-existent. It's less impossible if you reduce it to the kind of decisions typically made by a legislature, which mainly just sets rules for executive and judicial officials to apply in deciding more specific issues. But even then it's of dubious practicality; obviously not every citizen can have a full-time legislative staff, and most of other things besides legislation to devote their time to.
- mindcrime 9y ago
  Please stop misusing this word so we have a better chance of actually having a democracy somwhere at some point in the future. Please stop promoting democracy as the be-all end-all of systems for organizing human society. As the old saw goes "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the outcome".

by atleta 9y ago

ahoka 9y ago

"democracy is in pretty bad shape in Hungary right know" I thought that Hungary has a democratically elected government. Did I miss something?

PeterisP 9y ago
There's a saying that democracy is not when a government gets installed by fair elections, democracy is when a government gets removed by fair elections. Hitler was democratically elected as well, that is not sufficient to label his regime as democracy.
- praptak 9y ago
  > Hitler was democratically elected as well No he wasn't, it is not that simple. His party at that time had no majority despite being the largest one. He got appointed chancellor not by democratic vote but by backroom negotiations - mostly because he was expected to be easy to control. From this state he went for the dictatorship but again not by democratic election but rather by scaring the other parties into voting him the Enabling Act in 1933 after the supposedly communist-inspired Reichstag Fire.
praptak 9y ago
"Democratically elected government" does not imply "democracy is not in bad shape".
- jacquesm 9y ago
  We have several examples of such situations right now.
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  "Democratically elected government" implies that it is not a democracy but anything from aristocraty to plutocracy with q few things inbetween such as kleptocracy, oligarchy, etc. The very definition of election means aristocracy. To have a democracy it requires sortition instead.
SmellyGeekBoy 9y ago
So does Russia. And many African countries.
tom_mellior 9y ago
Here's Human Rights Watch on Hungary: https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/hungary https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/hungary Much of it focuses on the treatment of refugees, but you'll also find information about the suppression of free speech and the like. A "democratically elected government" in a country where the opposition is suppressed is not that democratically elected after all.
- ahoka 9y ago
  Only the sentence about refugees is true, but that has nothing to do with democracy. <tinfoil>Financier and philanthropist George Soros of the Open Society Foundation announced in 2010 his intention to grant US $100 million to HRW over a period of ten years to help it expand its efforts internationally.</tinfoil>
  - tom_mellior 9y ago
    > <tinfoil> Ah, I see. Presumably he also finances... Freedom House: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2015/hungary https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2015/hungary The International Press Institute: https://ipi.media/civil-defamation-and-media-freedom-in-hungary/ https://ipi.media/civil-defamation-and-media-freedom-in-hung... The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/09/opinion/hungarys-crackdown-on-the-press.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/09/opinion/hungarys-crackdow... The US government: https://hu.usembassy.gov/hungary-media-freedom-press-statement-u-s-department-state/ https://hu.usembassy.gov/hungary-media-freedom-press-stateme... The LA Times: http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-hungary-media-freedom-20201010-story.html http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-hungary-media-free...
atleta 9y ago
Yes, you probably missed a few lessons in high school. When I went there, I was taught that separation of powers is an important element, amongst others. This clearly does not apply to Hungary anymore, as the highest juridical power is an inner circle person (Tunde Hando), other important positions have also been filled with Fidesz's (the ruling party) people without any consensus with the opposition. This includes the constitutional court, the president of the republic (wait, what? Hungary is not even a republic anymore :) ). The police got and executed on direct commands from the PM. But if you don't like that, here's a short excerpt from Wikipedia: "No consensus exists on how to define democracy, but legal equality, political freedom and rule of law have been identified as important characteristics."[1] We don't have any of these. Or, to put it in an easier to digest way: all of these have been regularly (and increasingly) violated by the govt. As probably a fellow Hungarian who likes (is emotionally attached to) this government, I understand you are OK with it, but it doesn't make the current system any more democratic. Fun fact: the Kadar system called itself democratic too. But it's judged from the outside, for obvious reasons. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Characteristics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Characteristics

bigbugbag 9y ago

As every other country on earth right now, Hungary is not a democracy at all. So there's that. At some point we need to understand the novlang used here, by squatting the word democracy to label the political system based on elections, people in power manage to prevent to emergence of an actual democracy. Please stop misusing this word so we have a better chance of actually having a democracy somwhere at some point in the future.

willbw 9y ago
A practical democracy must be an abstraction of a pure, idealistic democracy. You cannot have millions of people deciding on every issue. Democratically elected representatives are one way we can do this. There may be better ways of doing things but it doesn't make democracies not democracies.
- bb611 9y ago
  > You cannot have millions of people deciding on every issue. From a technical perspective, this is clearly untrue.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > From a technical perspective, this is clearly untrue. It's impossible if you take “every issue” literally, as you are multiplying the number of pdecisions that must be made by each participant per unit of time so much that the time to consider them is non-existent. It's less impossible if you reduce it to the kind of decisions typically made by a legislature, which mainly just sets rules for executive and judicial officials to apply in deciding more specific issues. But even then it's of dubious practicality; obviously not every citizen can have a full-time legislative staff, and most of other things besides legislation to devote their time to.
mindcrime 9y ago
Please stop misusing this word so we have a better chance of actually having a democracy somwhere at some point in the future. Please stop promoting democracy as the be-all end-all of systems for organizing human society. As the old saw goes "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the outcome".