5 ms·

In what way? Is small, easy P2P payments a solved problem in Europe?

detaro 9y ago
Bank transfer. No fees, fast enough (at least inside a country next business day, I think internationally it's allowed to be a bit slower?), if you want to do it mobile there are enough banks that have apps.
- regulation_d 9y ago
  I can do bank transfers from my bank, but I feel awkward saying, "hey, can I get your routing and account number?" Even if I didn't feel awkward, with Venmo and Square Cash, I have all the information I need if either we're FB friends or have their email address.
  - detaro 9y ago
    Not an issue here (at least not in my circles, I couldn't even name any app like Venmo that's available here. Maybe Paypal has features like that by now, I see advertisements from them occasionally, but it never has come up, so I guess figuring out what apps the others use would be more hassle)
  - Sir_Substance 9y ago
    >Even if I didn't feel awkward, with Venmo and Square Cash, I have all the information I need if either we're FB friends or have their email address. Unless you want to send money to someone who isn't using those services.
    - regulation_d 9y ago
      For sure. But almost everyone I know has one or the other, if not both. That kennitala system sounds really cool, especially if people are conditioned to pass around their account number. I just found that when I would try to send electronic checks here, people got weird about handing over their routing and account numbers. Sometimes I would even say, "You know, the numbers that are on every check you've ever issued." Didn't matter, there was still some weirdness about it. That's definitely part of why I like Venmo and Square Cash. It's much closer to a unilateral transaction.
      - Sir_Substance 9y ago
        >That kennitala system sounds really cool, especially if people are conditioned to pass around their account number. >I just found that when I would try to send electronic checks here, people got weird about handing over their routing and account numbers. I think that uncertainty is definitely part of the problem. The criticality of keeping an SSN secret whilst paradoxically sometimes having to have it on hand to give to specific authorized people seems like a recipe for paranoia. The honest truth is I don't know if US bank account numbers need to be kept secret. I would hope not, but I also wouldn't be that surprised if someone told me they did. I can understand people taking a defensive stance, but the fact that there is space for services like Venmo to exist is a direct sign that US banks are dropping the ball. Sending money between eachother more easily than using cash is practically the reason banks were invented (although certainly not the reason they are so big right now[1]). That wouldn't bother me so much, except we've already been down this path. Paypal has rubbed it's name into the dirt by using it's position as an unregulated psudobank to "hold funds for investigation" and gather the interest, or to unilaterally close accounts and thus implicitly seize the funds within. The idea of a vendor-locked payment system taking root really sits ill with me. It could cause major problems with paying rent or receiving wages for people who don't, won't or can't use compatible smartphones. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-09ap6zIB6I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-09ap6zIB6I
        uiri 9y ago
        I don't know if US bank account numbers need to be kept secret. Yeah, they kind of should be since the number is basically all that someone needs in order to print cheques that take money out of a given account. The US has a "pull" system instead of the more secure "push" system in Europe where giving out a bank account number is totally normal (and was back in the day before electronic banking too).
        icebraining 9y ago
        The EU now has a pull system too, thanks to SEPA Direct Debits. The receiver only has to send an XML file to the bank claiming that the client signed a mandate authorizing them. The client does have 13 months to make a claim and get the money back, but it means that one has to carefully read the statements, rather than trust that every transaction was initiated by us.
  - vilmosi 9y ago
    Well it's not more awkward that the initial "can I have your phone number" or "can I add you on Facebook". You only do it once when you need it and never again. Also, there's plenty of alternatives, bank transfers are usually the last resort. There's Revolut, Monzo, Ping It... (UK perspective)
  - ionised 9y ago
    hey, can I get your routing and account number? Why? That's what they are for.
- ionised 9y ago
  A bank transfer happens pretty much instantly when I do it (First Direct, UK). It can occasionally take up to an hour, but it's rare.
Sir_Substance 9y ago
Yes. Iceland has a system called the kennitala. It's kind of like a social security number, except not secret. If you give me your kennitala and your bank account number (10 digits), I can send you any amount of money, no lower limit (there might be an upper one, I haven't tried buying a house GIRO) without paying a fee, regardless of which bank you're with. When I sign a rental agreement with my landlord, I give him my kennitala and no other details. He sets up a recurring payment request linked to my kennitala. Every month, the bill shows up in my account with a request to pay it, but it's not like a credit card charge, it's merely a request for payment, kind of like the inverse of me inputting my landlords bank details and kennitala myself. I can ignore it if I want to. Because the kennitala is independent from the bank, I can change banks and my landlords rental bill, along with all my utilities bills, will automatically start showing up on my new account without anyone doing anything.
throwaway90001 9y ago
Canada has Interac e-transfers, which you send to an email or phone number and the user redeems them with their bank. It's a little more friction than tapping a button (you have to set up a pass code for redemption) but it's included with most chequing accounts.
- afterburner 9y ago
  Most banks charge a $1 fee though.
oakesm9 9y ago
Most UK bank account allow you to pay using a person's phone number instead of account and sort number. Work across (all?) banks and payments are usually instant directly into the account.
- ionised 9y ago
  Yeah it's called PayM

Bank transfer. No fees, fast enough (at least inside a country next business day, I think internationally it's allowed to be a bit slower?), if you want to do it mobile there are enough banks that have apps.

regulation_d 9y ago
I can do bank transfers from my bank, but I feel awkward saying, "hey, can I get your routing and account number?" Even if I didn't feel awkward, with Venmo and Square Cash, I have all the information I need if either we're FB friends or have their email address.
- detaro 9y ago
  Not an issue here (at least not in my circles, I couldn't even name any app like Venmo that's available here. Maybe Paypal has features like that by now, I see advertisements from them occasionally, but it never has come up, so I guess figuring out what apps the others use would be more hassle)
- Sir_Substance 9y ago
  >Even if I didn't feel awkward, with Venmo and Square Cash, I have all the information I need if either we're FB friends or have their email address. Unless you want to send money to someone who isn't using those services.
  - regulation_d 9y ago
    For sure. But almost everyone I know has one or the other, if not both. That kennitala system sounds really cool, especially if people are conditioned to pass around their account number. I just found that when I would try to send electronic checks here, people got weird about handing over their routing and account numbers. Sometimes I would even say, "You know, the numbers that are on every check you've ever issued." Didn't matter, there was still some weirdness about it. That's definitely part of why I like Venmo and Square Cash. It's much closer to a unilateral transaction.
    - Sir_Substance 9y ago
      >That kennitala system sounds really cool, especially if people are conditioned to pass around their account number. >I just found that when I would try to send electronic checks here, people got weird about handing over their routing and account numbers. I think that uncertainty is definitely part of the problem. The criticality of keeping an SSN secret whilst paradoxically sometimes having to have it on hand to give to specific authorized people seems like a recipe for paranoia. The honest truth is I don't know if US bank account numbers need to be kept secret. I would hope not, but I also wouldn't be that surprised if someone told me they did. I can understand people taking a defensive stance, but the fact that there is space for services like Venmo to exist is a direct sign that US banks are dropping the ball. Sending money between eachother more easily than using cash is practically the reason banks were invented (although certainly not the reason they are so big right now[1]). That wouldn't bother me so much, except we've already been down this path. Paypal has rubbed it's name into the dirt by using it's position as an unregulated psudobank to "hold funds for investigation" and gather the interest, or to unilaterally close accounts and thus implicitly seize the funds within. The idea of a vendor-locked payment system taking root really sits ill with me. It could cause major problems with paying rent or receiving wages for people who don't, won't or can't use compatible smartphones. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-09ap6zIB6I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-09ap6zIB6I
      - uiri 9y ago
        I don't know if US bank account numbers need to be kept secret. Yeah, they kind of should be since the number is basically all that someone needs in order to print cheques that take money out of a given account. The US has a "pull" system instead of the more secure "push" system in Europe where giving out a bank account number is totally normal (and was back in the day before electronic banking too).
        icebraining 9y ago
        The EU now has a pull system too, thanks to SEPA Direct Debits. The receiver only has to send an XML file to the bank claiming that the client signed a mandate authorizing them. The client does have 13 months to make a claim and get the money back, but it means that one has to carefully read the statements, rather than trust that every transaction was initiated by us.
- vilmosi 9y ago
  Well it's not more awkward that the initial "can I have your phone number" or "can I add you on Facebook". You only do it once when you need it and never again. Also, there's plenty of alternatives, bank transfers are usually the last resort. There's Revolut, Monzo, Ping It... (UK perspective)
- ionised 9y ago
  hey, can I get your routing and account number? Why? That's what they are for.
ionised 9y ago
A bank transfer happens pretty much instantly when I do it (First Direct, UK). It can occasionally take up to an hour, but it's rare.

Sir_Substance 9y ago

Yes. Iceland has a system called the kennitala. It's kind of like a social security number, except not secret. If you give me your kennitala and your bank account number (10 digits), I can send you any amount of money, no lower limit (there might be an upper one, I haven't tried buying a house GIRO) without paying a fee, regardless of which bank you're with. When I sign a rental agreement with my landlord, I give him my kennitala and no other details. He sets up a recurring payment request linked to my kennitala. Every month, the bill shows up in my account with a request to pay it, but it's not like a credit card charge, it's merely a request for payment, kind of like the inverse of me inputting my landlords bank details and kennitala myself. I can ignore it if I want to. Because the kennitala is independent from the bank, I can change banks and my landlords rental bill, along with all my utilities bills, will automatically start showing up on my new account without anyone doing anything.

throwaway90001 9y ago

Canada has Interac e-transfers, which you send to an email or phone number and the user redeems them with their bank. It's a little more friction than tapping a button (you have to set up a pass code for redemption) but it's included with most chequing accounts.

afterburner 9y ago
Most banks charge a $1 fee though.

oakesm9 9y ago

Most UK bank account allow you to pay using a person's phone number instead of account and sort number. Work across (all?) banks and payments are usually instant directly into the account.

ionised 9y ago
Yeah it's called PayM