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I think that's a really interesting point, somewhat orthogonal to language mastery itself, and probably particularly impactful in Japan. A kid might grow up wi
by veidr 9y ago
I think that's a really interesting point, somewhat orthogonal to language mastery itself, and probably particularly impactful in Japan.
A kid might grow up with perfect Japanese and be able to say anything, but choosing what to say can be another matter; how to make or respond to a request, how to deal with an affront, how to present yourself in a hiring interview, or a first meeting with a girlfriend's father...
I'm a white Californian guy, and my wife's Japanese. Our kids are dual-nationality and growing up bilingual, but this was a major factor in the decision to raise them primarily in Japan for the first part of their lives — so they get those things intuitively.
I myself went to university in Japan, and what I saw there convinced me this was a big deal. I was put into the "special Japanese" class, due to my wildly asymmetrical Japanese ability — I could speak Japanese an order of magnitude more effectively than I could understand it being spoken to me (reading/writing was still out of the question, as I'd only been learning for a year).
But the interesting thing about that class was that all of my classmates were Japanese, who had grown up abroad for some/many years during childhood. So I got to witness their struggles with the finer points of the language and writing kanji (which was normal, and what you'd expect) and also with the implicit rules and norms of Japanese culture and interpersonal interaction.
That latter bit was kind of mindblowing to me at the time. Since I was this white kid, nobody ever expected me to speak Japanese, or even be able to use chopsticks. (That's still largely true, incidentally, and it really seems to chafe at some long-term expats here, sometimes causing them to write epic rants about Japan...) In fact, I'd grown to understand, if I were to flawlessly execute the finer points of Japanese etiquette, it would veer into uncanny valley territory and make people uncomfortable — something like a chimpanzee putting on his own bowtie and sitting down to eat a formal meal with a knife and fork.
But through that one class, I got to peek and to see how much different it was if you were Japanese. They had to be very careful when speaking their minds, to avoid sounding insolent, rude, or unqualified.
Where I might get a reaction amounting to "oh, interesting to hear the American opinion", my Japanese buddies expressing the same thing might get "oh, you aren't really Japanese," or even essentially "fuck you, weirdo".
It was interesting for me to see their struggle, and to realize it had nothing much to do with language. Being largely exempted from it, though, it wasn't that interesting to me... until I had kids.
But hopefully they will be "bi-cultural" or whatever we call it, in addition to bilingual. (I am pretty confident that it will take a lot fewer years of practice for them to acquire "full Californian" status than it will to be perceived as "full Japanese".)
- geomark 9y agoThis was thought provoking for me since I am raising a child in Thailand and there seem to be many parallels. Surprising to me is that despite being surrounded by the local language my child has chosen English as his first language. It seems to be due to my constant interaction with him plus he gravitated to English media at a very early age, particularly YouTube videos of American kids unboxing and playing with toys. Your comment about needing to live in the culture to be "full-<Asian country>" versus how quickly one can become "full-Californian" is kind of amusing but I think it is true.
- veidr 9y agoThat's interesting. There are many toy unboxing videos in Japanese, so although my kids were as addicted as many 2-4 years olds are, it didn't bias them toward English. That is a fascinating genre of product, BTW; at first it freaked me out how many grown men were making toy unboxing videos obviously aimed at preliterate 2-year-olds. Then I saw the view counts, which are upwards of 100 million in some cases...
- geomark 9y agoAn eye opener for me as well. But lately my kid has been watching some really dumb channels, like the one where American teenagers build toilet paper forts at Costco. I'm not happy that he thinks that is cool, or that he thinks the guy whose "career" is skateboarder is someone to look up to. I don't care how many views that guy gets or how much he is making from YouTube adveritising. That's not a career to aspire to.
- umanwizard 9y agoWhen my brother was little he desperately wanted to be a garbage truck driver – now he’s a teacher. I wouldn’t worry about it.
- KayEss 9y ago(A bit OT, but) Just thought I'd say Hi as it sounds like you have a very similar set up to me. Also in Thailand, also got a kid at an international school. I'm Norwegian and grew up bilingual in the UK and I see my daughter doing many of the things that I did as a kid. Effortlessly switching language mid-sentence for example. I do expect her to (and hope she does) end up with stronger English than Thai. I think that'll be far more useful to her in life.