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Findings like this is why I find it very unpleasant when people start talking about destroying whole species because they are pests to humans. The latest one I

Findings like this is why I find it very unpleasant when people start talking about destroying whole species because they are pests to humans. The latest one I've read about is the idea that we need to get rid of all mosquitos. They are pests to us but I wonder how many other species depend on them for food and how will the mosquito's extermination affect the web of life.

revelation 9y ago
We know what happens: evolution. The idea that the whole thing will totally collapse because you made one change is ridiculous and frankly utterly unsupported by the evidence, not least our understanding of this poor optimization algorithm driven by random chance. I frankly always find these comments unpleasant because they seem to come exclusively from people sitting in some air-conditioned building miles away from a full 5 m^2 trees that they got to riding a 2 ton behemoth on tarmaced streets that casually reaches speeds no animal ever could powered by the remains of dinosaurs. Yeah I wonder how that affected "the web of life". It's a fashionable form of NIMBY except these people are not arguing from a position of naked self-interest but ignorance.
- chillwaves 9y ago
  But won't you please think of the mosquitoes!
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  It's just as silly to assume that everything will be fine if we lose one species as it is to assume that everything will collapse. These questions need to be asked and studied, not just dismissed with a sneer either way.
- blackoil 9y ago
  Evolution works for natural slow changes over thousands of years and not against sudden disruptions. There had been multiple ELEs.
- Radim 9y ago
  Sure, the nature will adapt, but will humans? For us, it's not a zero sum game of universe-wide optimization. We have skin in the game, so to speak. Mandatory George Carlin link: "The planet is fine; humans are fucked" https://youtu.be/YawTvnyoqbU?t=77 https://youtu.be/YawTvnyoqbU?t=77
  - WheelsAtLarge 9y ago
    Well said. I've heard this before,"Destruction by many cuts will eventually kill us." I think you can apply this to the way we treat our environment.
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  It can take a long time to balance back out. Something will develop to fill the empty niche. Things will be fine in the end for nature. But it might take 10,000 years for things to stabilize again, and I don't want to wait that long :)
- jackfoxy 9y ago
  Petroleum does not come from the remains of dinosaurs, but rather algae and zooplankton. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum
- Girlang 9y ago
  Huh? Build up a strawman just to tear him down! Right now: - I'm not air conditioned. - I generate all the power for my vehicle myself - I walk to work every day - There are hundreds of trees in my yard
chillwaves 9y ago
The reality is humans have caused another mass extinction event for the planet. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/climate/mass-extinction-animal-species.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/climate/mass-extinction-a... So that's the reality of the situation. If we are wiping out species, might as well do one like mosquitoes which are a nuisance, bring disease and do not have some kind of monopoly in their biological niche. Anything that eats mosquitoes also eats other bugs.
- ObeyTheGuts 9y ago
  dude, mosquito larva is major food for many species, people like you should be eradicated
- Luc 9y ago
  Apparently we're not even close to '6th mass extinction' standards: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/06/the-ends-of-the-world/529545/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/06/the-ends... “I think that if we keep things up long enough, we’ll get to a mass extinction, but we’re not in a mass extinction yet, and I think that’s an optimistic discovery because that means we actually have time to avoid Armageddon,”
abhi3 9y ago
Mosquito elimination is considered for metropolitan areas where it'd have an insignificant environmental impact rather than as a global extinction.
- nkozyra 9y ago
  The topic of global eradication of mosquitoes (and the implication of that) is extraordinarily common. The frequent argument is no species is known to subsist entirely on mosquitoes, implying it may have no or negligible implication on the ecosystem at large.
zaroth 9y ago
The particular species of mosquito that carries disease and bites humans is just 3% of ~3,500 different species of mosquitos. So in the case of mosquitoes we absolutely do not want to eradicate all mosquitoes, just a very specific sub-population, which by the way, are the most deadly animal to humans in the world. Malaria is likely responsible for killing a single digit and possibly double digit percentage of all humans that have ever lived. Mosquitoes have literally killed billions of people since the dawn of time. [1] - https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/Most-Lethal-Animal-Mosquito-Week https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/Most-Lethal-Animal-Mosquit... [2] - http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35408835 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35408835
stinos 9y ago
This was discussed on HN recently, in a pretty nice manner actually: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14772926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14772926
ptero 9y ago
You do not need to go that drastic. One could consider significant reduction in numbers, even staying narrow to a small set of subspecies (e.g. deer ticks which are much more numerous this year), instead of full extermination. This happens in nature, too. Predators and prey numbers can take big swings with no humans to blame.

revelation 9y ago

We know what happens: evolution. The idea that the whole thing will totally collapse because you made one change is ridiculous and frankly utterly unsupported by the evidence, not least our understanding of this poor optimization algorithm driven by random chance. I frankly always find these comments unpleasant because they seem to come exclusively from people sitting in some air-conditioned building miles away from a full 5 m^2 trees that they got to riding a 2 ton behemoth on tarmaced streets that casually reaches speeds no animal ever could powered by the remains of dinosaurs. Yeah I wonder how that affected "the web of life". It's a fashionable form of NIMBY except these people are not arguing from a position of naked self-interest but ignorance.

chillwaves 9y ago
But won't you please think of the mosquitoes!
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
It's just as silly to assume that everything will be fine if we lose one species as it is to assume that everything will collapse. These questions need to be asked and studied, not just dismissed with a sneer either way.
blackoil 9y ago
Evolution works for natural slow changes over thousands of years and not against sudden disruptions. There had been multiple ELEs.
Radim 9y ago
Sure, the nature will adapt, but will humans? For us, it's not a zero sum game of universe-wide optimization. We have skin in the game, so to speak. Mandatory George Carlin link: "The planet is fine; humans are fucked" https://youtu.be/YawTvnyoqbU?t=77 https://youtu.be/YawTvnyoqbU?t=77
- WheelsAtLarge 9y ago
  Well said. I've heard this before,"Destruction by many cuts will eventually kill us." I think you can apply this to the way we treat our environment.
sliverstorm 9y ago
It can take a long time to balance back out. Something will develop to fill the empty niche. Things will be fine in the end for nature. But it might take 10,000 years for things to stabilize again, and I don't want to wait that long :)
jackfoxy 9y ago
Petroleum does not come from the remains of dinosaurs, but rather algae and zooplankton. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum
Girlang 9y ago
Huh? Build up a strawman just to tear him down! Right now: - I'm not air conditioned. - I generate all the power for my vehicle myself - I walk to work every day - There are hundreds of trees in my yard

chillwaves 9y ago

The reality is humans have caused another mass extinction event for the planet. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/climate/mass-extinction-animal-species.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/climate/mass-extinction-a... So that's the reality of the situation. If we are wiping out species, might as well do one like mosquitoes which are a nuisance, bring disease and do not have some kind of monopoly in their biological niche. Anything that eats mosquitoes also eats other bugs.

ObeyTheGuts 9y ago
dude, mosquito larva is major food for many species, people like you should be eradicated
Luc 9y ago
Apparently we're not even close to '6th mass extinction' standards: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/06/the-ends-of-the-world/529545/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/06/the-ends... “I think that if we keep things up long enough, we’ll get to a mass extinction, but we’re not in a mass extinction yet, and I think that’s an optimistic discovery because that means we actually have time to avoid Armageddon,”

abhi3 9y ago

Mosquito elimination is considered for metropolitan areas where it'd have an insignificant environmental impact rather than as a global extinction.

nkozyra 9y ago
The topic of global eradication of mosquitoes (and the implication of that) is extraordinarily common. The frequent argument is no species is known to subsist entirely on mosquitoes, implying it may have no or negligible implication on the ecosystem at large.

zaroth 9y ago

The particular species of mosquito that carries disease and bites humans is just 3% of ~3,500 different species of mosquitos. So in the case of mosquitoes we absolutely do not want to eradicate all mosquitoes, just a very specific sub-population, which by the way, are the most deadly animal to humans in the world. Malaria is likely responsible for killing a single digit and possibly double digit percentage of all humans that have ever lived. Mosquitoes have literally killed billions of people since the dawn of time. [1] - https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/Most-Lethal-Animal-Mosquito-Week https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/Most-Lethal-Animal-Mosquit... [2] - http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35408835 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35408835

stinos 9y ago

This was discussed on HN recently, in a pretty nice manner actually: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14772926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14772926

ptero 9y ago

You do not need to go that drastic. One could consider significant reduction in numbers, even staying narrow to a small set of subspecies (e.g. deer ticks which are much more numerous this year), instead of full extermination. This happens in nature, too. Predators and prey numbers can take big swings with no humans to blame.