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Am I the only one here that gets a little terrified by this kind of thing? I mean I'm fine if they're just selling recreational drugs. But, we all know that the

Am I the only one here that gets a little terrified by this kind of thing? I mean I'm fine if they're just selling recreational drugs. But, we all know that there are much worse things people will be selling on these crypto markets than just plain old LSD and marijuana. Can we find a way to help law enforcement police at the very least the really, really bad stuff?

larvaetron 9y ago
You could start OpenBauer - decentralized Bitcoin marketplace for stuff that matthewbauer approves of.
sillysaurus3 9y ago
You're not the only one. These services have destroyed peoples' lives by providing them easy access to coke, meth, and heroin. Contrary to opinion, the vast majority of these people would not have found those drugs in the streets. There are no easy solutions here, but it's false to claim that these services are inherently better than what came before. They may make it safer to acquire the drugs, but they also make it much easier to do so. I don't think we should lock people up for possessing these drugs, but an unregulated marketplace with easy access to a Willy Wonka factory of narcotics is deeply troubling.
- jstanley 9y ago
  OpenBazaar isn't a darknet market. It's a decentralised peer-to-peer market.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    If people are getting crack from it, does it matter what type of market it is? People are saying this is where the drug trade might migrate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14828864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14828864 I think it's scary that (a) these markets are here to stay, and (b) anyone with a computer and the most basic technology skills will be able to get any hard drug they can imagine delivered right to their doorstep. Again, there's nothing to be done, really. That's just the way the world is now. But it's unfortunate.
    - jstanley 9y ago
      Firstly, there are absolutely no illegal drugs currently being sold on OpenBazaar. It's almost exclusively novelty items at the moment. Secondly, if Alice wants to sell crack, and Bob wants to buy it, I don't see why you or I or anybody else has the right to stand in the middle and say that's not allowed. I accept that you think it's not good for Alice and Bob to be able to transact however they like, but you must accept that lots of people do not agree.
      - sillysaurus3 9y ago
        No one is arguing that Alice and Bob should be prevented from engaging in good ol' American trade. We're arguing that when drugs are ubiquitous -- as easy to access as pushing a button -- you'll spawn far more addicts than would have otherwise been created. When an addict's life is destroyed by these horrific tools of pleasure we've created, are they going to take solace in the fact that they were able to use technology to enable their habit? People become addicts for many reasons. One of the main ways is by being at a party among friends. No one expects to be addicted to this stuff, so they try a bit. In the old days, they had one option: Get more from their friend, which may not work forever. In modern times, they can get as much as they want from the darknet markets. Bitcoin ATMs make it trivial, too. You don't even need to be vetted by Coinbase. It's not just theoretical. People have witnessed the markets causing this.
        k__ 9y ago
        I thought it was known today that drugs aren't a problem, but people to whom drugs are the only relieve and the criminalisation of those.
        avip 9y ago
        Absolutely. It's well established that drugs aren't a problem. I mean, it's only the leading death cause of young Americans. Nothing to see here folks.
        9y ago
- c0nducktr 9y ago
  > Contrary to opinion, the vast majority of these people would not have found those drugs in the streets. [citation needed]
jstanley 9y ago
If you took a look at OpenBazaar you'd find absolutely nothing illegal for sale.
- StavrosK 9y ago
  I'm kind of wondering why that is. Since darknet markets are getting busted one after another, why hasn't everyone migrated to OpenBazaar? It would seem like a prime opportunity.
  - jstanley 9y ago
    I think there are 2 reasons: 1.) Lack of anonymity - AFAIK it doesn't yet have integration with tor-or-similar, although this is coming soon 2.) Network effects - hardly anyone is buying or selling anything on OpenBazaar, so there's not much motivation for anyone new to move there. I hope this changes. I use eBay for almost all of my online purchases, and I would love to see the day where OpenBazaar replaces eBay for all or most of my uses.
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      #1 is false since February: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-go/pull/342 https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-go/pull/342
      - jstanley 9y ago
        Not sure that's present in a stable release yet, but looks promising I agree.
      - tylersmith 9y ago
        As jstanley points out, that's our yet-to-be-released version 2. The current version 1 has no Tor support at all and never will (it uses UDP and is incompatible with Tor).
- matthewbauer 9y ago
  But, aren't illegal transactions at least possible under Open Bazaar? Any drug dealer could set up a store on here without any problems?
thomastjeffery 9y ago
> Can we find a way to help law enforcement police at the very least the really, really bad stuff? Law enforcement was designed to protect people (or their property) from the actions of other people, not themselves. Law enforcement is fundamentally incapable of protecting people from themselves. That is why the "war on drugs" has been so ineffective. The most effective method to stop the drug (opioid, etc.) epidemic is treatment and education, not law enforcement.
- mulmen 9y ago
  I have never considered the failure of the war on drugs from this perspective, thanks for sharing that.
- pelasaco 9y ago
  The best way to fight the drug cartel and crime related with drugs is with law enforcement. The vast majority of victims aren't drug users.
- chroma 9y ago
  > Law enforcement was designed to protect people (or their property) from the actions of other people, not themselves. Two points: 1. I can think of many counterexamples to this: Self-harm, suicide attempts, people doing dumb stuff like playing with fireworks. We as a society have decided that if you're a danger to yourself, it's OK to have other people stop you and lock you up until you're not. Of course, people disagree on what counts as self-endangerment. 2. Self-endangerment is not the reason most anti-drug people favor strict punishments. They're concerned about the effect drug use has on society. eg: Worrying that addicts will commit crimes to get their next fix. I lean very libertarian, so my view is that these substances should be legal and taxed commensurate to the harm they cause. That said, I feel compelled to find flaws in arguments no matter what side they're on.
- matthewbauer 9y ago
  Although I mention it in the comment, drugs aren't my primary concern. What about for example: child porn, forced prostitution, contract killings, etc. These things all existed before crypto-markets, it just seems like crypto-markets make life so much easier for these types of things (if they are as effective as advertised). Sure, we can police the "meat space" part of these transactions, but at what cost?
tylersmith 9y ago
Do you have any ideas on how to prevent "really, really bad stuff" versus regular old bad stuff?
int_19h 9y ago
> Can we find a way to help law enforcement police at the very least the really, really bad stuff? Much like strong end-to-end crypto has already made it extremely hard to investigate potential criminal activity via wiretapping, and will make it impossible in the future once it's ubiquitous, cryptocurrencies and decentralized markets will do the same to the ability of the governments to track crimes by following the money. It's not really a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a thing. Regulating it is not feasible (you can ban crypto, but enforcing that ban is another matter entirely), so societies will have to adapt. The more interesting question is, what does it do to the ability to tax. "Diamond Age" comes to mind...

larvaetron 9y ago

You could start OpenBauer - decentralized Bitcoin marketplace for stuff that matthewbauer approves of.

sillysaurus3 9y ago

You're not the only one. These services have destroyed peoples' lives by providing them easy access to coke, meth, and heroin. Contrary to opinion, the vast majority of these people would not have found those drugs in the streets. There are no easy solutions here, but it's false to claim that these services are inherently better than what came before. They may make it safer to acquire the drugs, but they also make it much easier to do so. I don't think we should lock people up for possessing these drugs, but an unregulated marketplace with easy access to a Willy Wonka factory of narcotics is deeply troubling.

jstanley 9y ago
OpenBazaar isn't a darknet market. It's a decentralised peer-to-peer market.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  If people are getting crack from it, does it matter what type of market it is? People are saying this is where the drug trade might migrate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14828864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14828864 I think it's scary that (a) these markets are here to stay, and (b) anyone with a computer and the most basic technology skills will be able to get any hard drug they can imagine delivered right to their doorstep. Again, there's nothing to be done, really. That's just the way the world is now. But it's unfortunate.
  - jstanley 9y ago
    Firstly, there are absolutely no illegal drugs currently being sold on OpenBazaar. It's almost exclusively novelty items at the moment. Secondly, if Alice wants to sell crack, and Bob wants to buy it, I don't see why you or I or anybody else has the right to stand in the middle and say that's not allowed. I accept that you think it's not good for Alice and Bob to be able to transact however they like, but you must accept that lots of people do not agree.
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      No one is arguing that Alice and Bob should be prevented from engaging in good ol' American trade. We're arguing that when drugs are ubiquitous -- as easy to access as pushing a button -- you'll spawn far more addicts than would have otherwise been created. When an addict's life is destroyed by these horrific tools of pleasure we've created, are they going to take solace in the fact that they were able to use technology to enable their habit? People become addicts for many reasons. One of the main ways is by being at a party among friends. No one expects to be addicted to this stuff, so they try a bit. In the old days, they had one option: Get more from their friend, which may not work forever. In modern times, they can get as much as they want from the darknet markets. Bitcoin ATMs make it trivial, too. You don't even need to be vetted by Coinbase. It's not just theoretical. People have witnessed the markets causing this.
      - k__ 9y ago
        I thought it was known today that drugs aren't a problem, but people to whom drugs are the only relieve and the criminalisation of those.
        avip 9y ago
        Absolutely. It's well established that drugs aren't a problem. I mean, it's only the leading death cause of young Americans. Nothing to see here folks.
        9y ago
c0nducktr 9y ago
> Contrary to opinion, the vast majority of these people would not have found those drugs in the streets. [citation needed]

jstanley 9y ago

If you took a look at OpenBazaar you'd find absolutely nothing illegal for sale.

StavrosK 9y ago
I'm kind of wondering why that is. Since darknet markets are getting busted one after another, why hasn't everyone migrated to OpenBazaar? It would seem like a prime opportunity.
- jstanley 9y ago
  I think there are 2 reasons: 1.) Lack of anonymity - AFAIK it doesn't yet have integration with tor-or-similar, although this is coming soon 2.) Network effects - hardly anyone is buying or selling anything on OpenBazaar, so there's not much motivation for anyone new to move there. I hope this changes. I use eBay for almost all of my online purchases, and I would love to see the day where OpenBazaar replaces eBay for all or most of my uses.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    #1 is false since February: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-go/pull/342 https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-go/pull/342
    - jstanley 9y ago
      Not sure that's present in a stable release yet, but looks promising I agree.
    - tylersmith 9y ago
      As jstanley points out, that's our yet-to-be-released version 2. The current version 1 has no Tor support at all and never will (it uses UDP and is incompatible with Tor).
matthewbauer 9y ago
But, aren't illegal transactions at least possible under Open Bazaar? Any drug dealer could set up a store on here without any problems?

thomastjeffery 9y ago

> Can we find a way to help law enforcement police at the very least the really, really bad stuff? Law enforcement was designed to protect people (or their property) from the actions of other people, not themselves. Law enforcement is fundamentally incapable of protecting people from themselves. That is why the "war on drugs" has been so ineffective. The most effective method to stop the drug (opioid, etc.) epidemic is treatment and education, not law enforcement.

mulmen 9y ago
I have never considered the failure of the war on drugs from this perspective, thanks for sharing that.
pelasaco 9y ago
The best way to fight the drug cartel and crime related with drugs is with law enforcement. The vast majority of victims aren't drug users.
chroma 9y ago
> Law enforcement was designed to protect people (or their property) from the actions of other people, not themselves. Two points: 1. I can think of many counterexamples to this: Self-harm, suicide attempts, people doing dumb stuff like playing with fireworks. We as a society have decided that if you're a danger to yourself, it's OK to have other people stop you and lock you up until you're not. Of course, people disagree on what counts as self-endangerment. 2. Self-endangerment is not the reason most anti-drug people favor strict punishments. They're concerned about the effect drug use has on society. eg: Worrying that addicts will commit crimes to get their next fix. I lean very libertarian, so my view is that these substances should be legal and taxed commensurate to the harm they cause. That said, I feel compelled to find flaws in arguments no matter what side they're on.
matthewbauer 9y ago
Although I mention it in the comment, drugs aren't my primary concern. What about for example: child porn, forced prostitution, contract killings, etc. These things all existed before crypto-markets, it just seems like crypto-markets make life so much easier for these types of things (if they are as effective as advertised). Sure, we can police the "meat space" part of these transactions, but at what cost?

tylersmith 9y ago

Do you have any ideas on how to prevent "really, really bad stuff" versus regular old bad stuff?

int_19h 9y ago

> Can we find a way to help law enforcement police at the very least the really, really bad stuff? Much like strong end-to-end crypto has already made it extremely hard to investigate potential criminal activity via wiretapping, and will make it impossible in the future once it's ubiquitous, cryptocurrencies and decentralized markets will do the same to the ability of the governments to track crimes by following the money. It's not really a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a thing. Regulating it is not feasible (you can ban crypto, but enforcing that ban is another matter entirely), so societies will have to adapt. The more interesting question is, what does it do to the ability to tax. "Diamond Age" comes to mind...