6 ms·

Honest question: do you really think they haven't thought of this? You think that none of these engineers and scientists have yet thought of your shielded fiber

Honest question: do you really think they haven't thought of this? You think that none of these engineers and scientists have yet thought of your shielded fiber optics idea? I'm not trying to be mean, I'm really curious. Radiation shielding is a hard problem. For meaningful reduction of xray and gamma radiation in this environment, we're talking inches of lead cladding [0]. And even that won't ensure a useful lifespan for your fiber, exposed to at least tens of Sv/h along much of its length. And cladding doesn't even begin to address the problem posed by neutron radiation. The environment in Reactor 2 isn't just hostile to life; it's hostile to organized matter. http://www.eichrom.com/PDF/gamma-ray-attenuation-white-paper-by-d.m.-rev-4.pdf http://www.eichrom.com/PDF/gamma-ray-attenuation-white-paper...

marze 9y ago
You don't need cladding on a simple light pipe. Did they consider non-electronics solutions? Who knows. It may be the sooner they discover where the fuel went, the sooner they need to start spending the $80B to dig it out. So slow is a feature.
- nate_meurer 9y ago
  Where'd you get that idea? :) You absolutely would need cladding on a light pipe, and lots of it. All kinds of optical materials are subject to darkening, clouding, and embrittlement by much lower levels of ionizing radiation than exist in the reactor [0]. Again, here we're talking about tremendous amounts of radiation over much of the pipe's length, so even small amounts of damage per unit length are going to quickly render the pipe useless for imaging. http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a013786.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a013786.pdf
  - marze 9y ago
    I see the problem, you are misunderstanding the proposal. I suggested using optics for imaging, and fiber to bring in illumination. You'd have a telescope-like camera at the far end. No image transmission through a fiber bundle. You would need refractive elements that would work in the high radiation environment. As for the illumination, collimated light down a polish steel tube would obviously work, but a rod of glass should work as well.
    - nate_meurer 9y ago
      Yes but illumination is not the problem here. The robots have no problem with lighting. Imaging is a problem. Your search for "refractive elements that would work in the high radiation environment" would likely lead you to something like the optics that Toshiba has developed for these robots. Remember to also account for the thermal effects; radiation of this magnitude is capable of heating the internal elements of your assembly by hundreds of degrees, and your telescope-like camera must maintain its tolerances very precisely to produce a usable image. And perhaps the hardest problem of all: how to maneuver all of this stuff into place through hundreds of meters of industrial hell, where humans can't even stay long in the parking lot outside of a shielded truck. Tackle these problems using no robotics, and you'll be famous, I guarantee it :)
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
frik 9y ago
* Fiber cables (that OP and I wrote) means a cable made out of glass - no problem at all for radiation. (face palm #1) * You can transfer light through such cables. This means you use one cable to send light into the scene and another cable to see to the scene. Please just look up how endoscopy works for many many many decades, long before computers were a thing. (face palm #2) You probably have a SPDIF connector at your home entertainment devices. Have a look at the fiber cable and hold it against a light or look through it, to get the idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF (it's about a single fiber cable, not a multi-fiber cable that is nowadays more common) * Endoscopes are operated with wires, mechanical wires operated by a human (or could be by low tech remote pneumatic construct many feets away from the scene) - just look up endoscop (face palm #3) So a low tech solution would work in such environments, though it's not as news worthy and not as cool as some robots, but it would be useful for a long time, not die at all. I am surprised by the lacking education here, unfortunately the site got mainstream and attracted average joes from everywhere - with even basic education like in physics and mechanical engineering we could have a proper conversation here. Even CS and startup topics are now littered by corporate drones and fanboys of minor things. Maybe different tags/channels would help to channel the news.
- nate_meurer 9y ago
  > "a cable made out of glass - no problem at all for radiation" I don't know where you got that idea, but it's very wrong. Optical glasses of all kinds are quite vulnerable to darkening, clouding, and embrittlement by much lower levels of ionizing radiation than those at Fukushima [0]. Even if you shielded the fibers with centimeters of lead, the radiation received along the fiber's length would quickly render it useless for either imaging or lighting. And with that much shielding, good luck moving it around. How exactly do you think you'll get your low-tech thingy into place, maneuvering it hundreds of meters of abandoned building, ruble and industrial wreckage? Remember that you can't even be in the parking lot unless you're in a heavily shielded truck. How would you protect the optical assemblies at the working end of your cable, which cannot be shielded and are thus exposed to hundreds of Sv/hr? Do you know how Toshiba designed the optics on their Scorpion robot? How would you improve on their materials or lens arrangements? Have you considered the thermal effects of this much radiation, which is capable of heating the internal elements of your assembly to hundreds of degrees? Read the links I gave, maybe do a bit of googling, and be assured that you have not actually outsmarted hundreds of nuclear physicists and robot experts with your super clever idea. 0: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a013786.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a013786.pdf

marze 9y ago

You don't need cladding on a simple light pipe. Did they consider non-electronics solutions? Who knows. It may be the sooner they discover where the fuel went, the sooner they need to start spending the $80B to dig it out. So slow is a feature.

nate_meurer 9y ago
Where'd you get that idea? :) You absolutely would need cladding on a light pipe, and lots of it. All kinds of optical materials are subject to darkening, clouding, and embrittlement by much lower levels of ionizing radiation than exist in the reactor [0]. Again, here we're talking about tremendous amounts of radiation over much of the pipe's length, so even small amounts of damage per unit length are going to quickly render the pipe useless for imaging. http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a013786.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a013786.pdf
- marze 9y ago
  I see the problem, you are misunderstanding the proposal. I suggested using optics for imaging, and fiber to bring in illumination. You'd have a telescope-like camera at the far end. No image transmission through a fiber bundle. You would need refractive elements that would work in the high radiation environment. As for the illumination, collimated light down a polish steel tube would obviously work, but a rod of glass should work as well.
  - nate_meurer 9y ago
    Yes but illumination is not the problem here. The robots have no problem with lighting. Imaging is a problem. Your search for "refractive elements that would work in the high radiation environment" would likely lead you to something like the optics that Toshiba has developed for these robots. Remember to also account for the thermal effects; radiation of this magnitude is capable of heating the internal elements of your assembly by hundreds of degrees, and your telescope-like camera must maintain its tolerances very precisely to produce a usable image. And perhaps the hardest problem of all: how to maneuver all of this stuff into place through hundreds of meters of industrial hell, where humans can't even stay long in the parking lot outside of a shielded truck. Tackle these problems using no robotics, and you'll be famous, I guarantee it :)
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

frik 9y ago

* Fiber cables (that OP and I wrote) means a cable made out of glass - no problem at all for radiation. (face palm #1) * You can transfer light through such cables. This means you use one cable to send light into the scene and another cable to see to the scene. Please just look up how endoscopy works for many many many decades, long before computers were a thing. (face palm #2) You probably have a SPDIF connector at your home entertainment devices. Have a look at the fiber cable and hold it against a light or look through it, to get the idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF (it's about a single fiber cable, not a multi-fiber cable that is nowadays more common) * Endoscopes are operated with wires, mechanical wires operated by a human (or could be by low tech remote pneumatic construct many feets away from the scene) - just look up endoscop (face palm #3) So a low tech solution would work in such environments, though it's not as news worthy and not as cool as some robots, but it would be useful for a long time, not die at all. I am surprised by the lacking education here, unfortunately the site got mainstream and attracted average joes from everywhere - with even basic education like in physics and mechanical engineering we could have a proper conversation here. Even CS and startup topics are now littered by corporate drones and fanboys of minor things. Maybe different tags/channels would help to channel the news.

nate_meurer 9y ago
> "a cable made out of glass - no problem at all for radiation" I don't know where you got that idea, but it's very wrong. Optical glasses of all kinds are quite vulnerable to darkening, clouding, and embrittlement by much lower levels of ionizing radiation than those at Fukushima [0]. Even if you shielded the fibers with centimeters of lead, the radiation received along the fiber's length would quickly render it useless for either imaging or lighting. And with that much shielding, good luck moving it around. How exactly do you think you'll get your low-tech thingy into place, maneuvering it hundreds of meters of abandoned building, ruble and industrial wreckage? Remember that you can't even be in the parking lot unless you're in a heavily shielded truck. How would you protect the optical assemblies at the working end of your cable, which cannot be shielded and are thus exposed to hundreds of Sv/hr? Do you know how Toshiba designed the optics on their Scorpion robot? How would you improve on their materials or lens arrangements? Have you considered the thermal effects of this much radiation, which is capable of heating the internal elements of your assembly to hundreds of degrees? Read the links I gave, maybe do a bit of googling, and be assured that you have not actually outsmarted hundreds of nuclear physicists and robot experts with your super clever idea. 0: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a013786.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a013786.pdf