6 ms·

I have little doubt this is essentially what happened-- quite possibly operating completely within the law. Perhaps they do publish a book. But we've all heard

I have little doubt this is essentially what happened-- quite possibly operating completely within the law. Perhaps they do publish a book. But we've all heard about "directory" services like this and I dare anyone to keep a straight face and say they don't greatly benefit from deceiving people.

obiefernandez 16y ago
They produced, published and mailed out a real 1000+ page book, twice a year, and I'm aware that it cost them millions of dollars and lots of manpower to do so. We can debate the usefulness of paper-based yellow pages in this day and age until the cows come home, but either way it would not mean they committed fraud.
- ryanjmo 16y ago
  I do not think the pervious commentor was implying that they committed fraud; he or she was simply saying that they likely benefit from deceiving people. Many legit companies benefit from deceiving people.
  - Confusion 16y ago
    I think it's rather rude of you and that previous commentor to assert such things. A company does not 'deceive' its customers just because you think the service they offer is useless and could only possibly be sold as a result of grandiose claims of effectiveness and other false pretenses. In fact, in this day and age, large parts of the worlds still work the same way they worked ten years ago. Time and time again, we internet savvy folks grossly overestimate the amount of business and consumption that has shifted to 'the web'. Yes, Amazon has a revenue of 24.5 billion. Do you realize what the total size of that market is? I know someone that still makes money printing books of coupons that the receivers can redeem to obtains discounts, rebates, etc. If you honestely believe that companies only invest in that out of custom and the false belief that it still yields results, then you are out of your mind. You are mistaking intelligence for knowledge and making claims about a subject you actually don't know anything about.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      Sending businesses invoices that are not really invoices until you read the fine print is scammy, even if the majority will never get paid it is essentially hoping for administrative people not being 'on the ball' enough to realize what they're doing. Big corporations invented 'purchase orders' for that reason so they're fairly well protected, but the smaller companies that outsource their books because they're too busy doing their work are the ones that are the victims of companies like these. I've received a couple of such 'not invoices' from companies here in NL and Belgium and they're usually crafted well enough that you have to read them three times before you realize they're not legit. One of them actually presented itself as a 'kvk' which is short for 'kamer van koophandel', the local chambers of commerce. They're parasites, pure and simple, selling a service for which there is no real demand other than to create a 'product' used as a fig-leaf to hide the scam behind.
      - Confusion 16y ago
        I understand all that; it's besides the point. The point is that there is no reason to assume that this specific company engaged in such behavior.
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
- techiferous 16y ago
  Obie, sorry to hear about this fiasco. Do you by chance have an example of the solicitations in question? Showing that the solicitation was designed in good faith (and not to confuse people) can go a long way to quell the rumor mill.
  - acangiano 16y ago
    IANAL, but you can check Exibit A at the end of the document embedded in this blog post: http://avramc.posterous.com/united-directories-federal-court-indictment-d# http://avramc.posterous.com/united-directories-federal-court... Facts: - They clearly state that it's not a bill/invoice. - The fine print explains that there is no obligation to subscribe. - The fine print explains that they are not affiliated with the actual Yellow Pages. - The fine print font is larger than your typical bank statement fine print. - The typical Yellow Pages logo is prominently featured in the solicitation. This is probably not illegal, but can be seen as potentially misleading. - The first line of the return card is addressed to YELLOW PAGES (as opposed to Yellow Pages United). Probably not illegal, but again, potentially misleading. Opinion: I think they (United Directories, not Hashrocket) adopted an unpleasant business model that I wouldn't want to be associated with. But considering Exibit A, it appears that as far as the solicitation goes, they may be operating within the borders of legality. It will be interesting to see what the court will decide.
    - milesf 16y ago
      What's the deal with Mark Smith's brother Charles? "In September 2009, a Grand Jury sitting in the Northern District of Georgia indicted Charles Smith for committing mail fraud. He remains a fugitive."
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - adam_lowe 16y ago
        Mark's brother Charles has been estranged from the family for 20 years or more. I have known the family which is very close knit and court was the first time I ever heard of the existence of Charles.

obiefernandez 16y ago

They produced, published and mailed out a real 1000+ page book, twice a year, and I'm aware that it cost them millions of dollars and lots of manpower to do so. We can debate the usefulness of paper-based yellow pages in this day and age until the cows come home, but either way it would not mean they committed fraud.

ryanjmo 16y ago
I do not think the pervious commentor was implying that they committed fraud; he or she was simply saying that they likely benefit from deceiving people. Many legit companies benefit from deceiving people.
- Confusion 16y ago
  I think it's rather rude of you and that previous commentor to assert such things. A company does not 'deceive' its customers just because you think the service they offer is useless and could only possibly be sold as a result of grandiose claims of effectiveness and other false pretenses. In fact, in this day and age, large parts of the worlds still work the same way they worked ten years ago. Time and time again, we internet savvy folks grossly overestimate the amount of business and consumption that has shifted to 'the web'. Yes, Amazon has a revenue of 24.5 billion. Do you realize what the total size of that market is? I know someone that still makes money printing books of coupons that the receivers can redeem to obtains discounts, rebates, etc. If you honestely believe that companies only invest in that out of custom and the false belief that it still yields results, then you are out of your mind. You are mistaking intelligence for knowledge and making claims about a subject you actually don't know anything about.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    Sending businesses invoices that are not really invoices until you read the fine print is scammy, even if the majority will never get paid it is essentially hoping for administrative people not being 'on the ball' enough to realize what they're doing. Big corporations invented 'purchase orders' for that reason so they're fairly well protected, but the smaller companies that outsource their books because they're too busy doing their work are the ones that are the victims of companies like these. I've received a couple of such 'not invoices' from companies here in NL and Belgium and they're usually crafted well enough that you have to read them three times before you realize they're not legit. One of them actually presented itself as a 'kvk' which is short for 'kamer van koophandel', the local chambers of commerce. They're parasites, pure and simple, selling a service for which there is no real demand other than to create a 'product' used as a fig-leaf to hide the scam behind.
    - Confusion 16y ago
      I understand all that; it's besides the point. The point is that there is no reason to assume that this specific company engaged in such behavior.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
techiferous 16y ago
Obie, sorry to hear about this fiasco. Do you by chance have an example of the solicitations in question? Showing that the solicitation was designed in good faith (and not to confuse people) can go a long way to quell the rumor mill.
- acangiano 16y ago
  IANAL, but you can check Exibit A at the end of the document embedded in this blog post: http://avramc.posterous.com/united-directories-federal-court-indictment-d# http://avramc.posterous.com/united-directories-federal-court... Facts: - They clearly state that it's not a bill/invoice. - The fine print explains that there is no obligation to subscribe. - The fine print explains that they are not affiliated with the actual Yellow Pages. - The fine print font is larger than your typical bank statement fine print. - The typical Yellow Pages logo is prominently featured in the solicitation. This is probably not illegal, but can be seen as potentially misleading. - The first line of the return card is addressed to YELLOW PAGES (as opposed to Yellow Pages United). Probably not illegal, but again, potentially misleading. Opinion: I think they (United Directories, not Hashrocket) adopted an unpleasant business model that I wouldn't want to be associated with. But considering Exibit A, it appears that as far as the solicitation goes, they may be operating within the borders of legality. It will be interesting to see what the court will decide.
  - milesf 16y ago
    What's the deal with Mark Smith's brother Charles? "In September 2009, a Grand Jury sitting in the Northern District of Georgia indicted Charles Smith for committing mail fraud. He remains a fugitive."
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - adam_lowe 16y ago
      Mark's brother Charles has been estranged from the family for 20 years or more. I have known the family which is very close knit and court was the first time I ever heard of the existence of Charles.