4 ms·

Comparing potential backdoors in proprietary systems with forced installation of spyware on endpoint devices? I don't think they're the same.

kijin 9y ago
Devil's advocate: Forced installation of highly visible spyware can be better in the sense that it makes people acutely aware of the fact that they're being spied on. From now on, separatists in Xinjiang will be reluctant to exchange their ideas on their phones and try to find other ways to communicate or circumvent the spyware. For example, someone might come up with a cracked version of the spyware that doesn't actually work although it looks okay upon casual inspection, and spread it like a virus in order to provide plausible deniability to people who are caught using it. On the other hand, if the surveillance apparatus were completely hidden, people will unknowingly expose sensitive communications to the authorities. Of course, if I were the Chinese official responsible for this policy, I would use highly visible and easily circumvented spyware in addition to backdoors and other more covert forms of surveillance. The spyware would just be a diversion.
- astebbin 9y ago
  I think forced, public smartphone surveillance is absolutely worse than secret surveillance, in two ways. First, it has a strong chilling effect on free speech and free thought. In a country where the rule of law is not well-established, you can never be sure what the local officials consider "bad" speech. As a result, you keep your mouth shut more often, just in case. This takes a psychological toll on everyone surveilled, not just criminals. Second, dedicated criminals will now actively avoid the compromised smartphones and seek alternate means of communication. As others have noted, the current surveillance malware seems easy to circumvent. This is why spy agencies don't generally advertise their sources and methods.
  - kijin 9y ago
    The premise is that everyone is already being surveilled in ways that Western three-letter agencies can only dream of, and that this Android app only makes this fact more obvious without making a significant contribution to the effectiveness of the surveillance regime as a whole. It would be analogous to a big red icon on your home screen with Snowden's face on it. You already know everything he told the world about the American government's recent behavior. The icon is just a reminder that the country you live in does unethical things, and in the case of China, a helluva lot more unethical things. Yes, it will have a chilling effect -- but only because the truth is chilling and this app reminds people of that truth. In America, a lot of what we say on these forums regarding our three-letter agencies is speculation. In China, pervasive surveillance and censorship is a reality, not just speculation. And I'm not sure whether it would be a good thing or a bad thing for the Chinese people to become more aware of this reality in their daily lives. I'm not saying this to pick an argument. I really don't know what to think of it.
  - hnbroseph 9y ago
    a strong chilling effect is free speech leading to everyone you know 'disappearing'.
    - astebbin 9y ago
      If someone is jailed for their speech, I wouldn't call it free. But perhaps I don't understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?
buttcake 9y ago
Just different means to the same end which depend on the laws governing a country.

kijin 9y ago

Devil's advocate: Forced installation of highly visible spyware can be better in the sense that it makes people acutely aware of the fact that they're being spied on. From now on, separatists in Xinjiang will be reluctant to exchange their ideas on their phones and try to find other ways to communicate or circumvent the spyware. For example, someone might come up with a cracked version of the spyware that doesn't actually work although it looks okay upon casual inspection, and spread it like a virus in order to provide plausible deniability to people who are caught using it. On the other hand, if the surveillance apparatus were completely hidden, people will unknowingly expose sensitive communications to the authorities. Of course, if I were the Chinese official responsible for this policy, I would use highly visible and easily circumvented spyware in addition to backdoors and other more covert forms of surveillance. The spyware would just be a diversion.

astebbin 9y ago
I think forced, public smartphone surveillance is absolutely worse than secret surveillance, in two ways. First, it has a strong chilling effect on free speech and free thought. In a country where the rule of law is not well-established, you can never be sure what the local officials consider "bad" speech. As a result, you keep your mouth shut more often, just in case. This takes a psychological toll on everyone surveilled, not just criminals. Second, dedicated criminals will now actively avoid the compromised smartphones and seek alternate means of communication. As others have noted, the current surveillance malware seems easy to circumvent. This is why spy agencies don't generally advertise their sources and methods.
- kijin 9y ago
  The premise is that everyone is already being surveilled in ways that Western three-letter agencies can only dream of, and that this Android app only makes this fact more obvious without making a significant contribution to the effectiveness of the surveillance regime as a whole. It would be analogous to a big red icon on your home screen with Snowden's face on it. You already know everything he told the world about the American government's recent behavior. The icon is just a reminder that the country you live in does unethical things, and in the case of China, a helluva lot more unethical things. Yes, it will have a chilling effect -- but only because the truth is chilling and this app reminds people of that truth. In America, a lot of what we say on these forums regarding our three-letter agencies is speculation. In China, pervasive surveillance and censorship is a reality, not just speculation. And I'm not sure whether it would be a good thing or a bad thing for the Chinese people to become more aware of this reality in their daily lives. I'm not saying this to pick an argument. I really don't know what to think of it.
- hnbroseph 9y ago
  a strong chilling effect is free speech leading to everyone you know 'disappearing'.
  - astebbin 9y ago
    If someone is jailed for their speech, I wouldn't call it free. But perhaps I don't understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?

buttcake 9y ago

Just different means to the same end which depend on the laws governing a country.