6 ms·

>> It is bad for negotiation and getting a favourable outcome for yourself Sooo, your main argument against this is not some privacy concern, but only the perc

>> It is bad for negotiation and getting a favourable outcome for yourself Sooo, your main argument against this is not some privacy concern, but only the perception that it would somehow help your salary negotiation. When relying on a lack of data/information, the only one that gets increased leverage is your employer, not you and your smart argument of "you just don't need to tell the others, boss <wink>". >> which is how they roll in Norway, and if you dare make more, they'll basically just tax it away Norway's tax rate is on par with other Nordic countries: high but nothing exceptional, and you get plenty of benefits (basically you get what you paid for). It's not stopping anybody from trying to make it. As a matter of fact they have one of the highest rate of millionaires per inhabitant (close to 200k for 5M).

charlesdm 9y ago
>> When relying on a lack of data/information, the only one that gets increased leverage is your employer, not you and your smart argument of "you just don't need to tell the others, boss <wink>". This makes no sense. Why wouldn't you be able to figure out how much others are making? There's plenty of data you can gather, online and from talking to people. Just because data is not public doesn't mean no one is willing to share how much they're making. If I'm making $50k, and I tell a new company I want $100k at a new job, there is no way that will fly if they know you're making $50k. But with opacity on salary, proper arguments and decent negotiating skills that is definitely achievable. One example: as a consultant, I have (in the past) easily doubled and/or tripled my rate at times, just based on the setting and by negotiating well. That would never work if everything was public. And in the end, the client was extremely happy with the result + I was happy with the (way above average) increased rate. >> Norway's tax rate is on par with other Nordic countries: high but nothing exceptional, and you get plenty of benefits (basically you get what you paid for). It's not stopping anybody from trying to make it. As a matter of fact they have one of the highest rate of millionaires per inhabitant (close to 200k for 5M). Perhaps. But that's also because of the problematic real estate bubble in Norway and Oslo. In a country where everything is highly taxed, certain asset classes (in this case real estate) get distorted if they are taxed lower. Add to that the reserves in their sovereign wealth fund, and you end up with many millionaires. There's a reason why Tesla was selling a ton of cars in Denmark, and sales plummeted (down from a few hundred to 6 of 8 cars in 6 months?) when they got rid of the tax credit. Benefits and healthcare are great and important -- I'm not saying you need super low taxes. What I'm saying is, if you don't specifically need to be in Norway to build out your business, e.g. it's something internet based, there are better countries to base yourself. Norway is a great country to visit though. I (personally) just couldn't live there, because I don't think the model of such a society would work for me. It's great to be able to have a bottle of wine with friends in a restaurant, without having to pay €300 for your meal + drinks in an average restaurant.
- RodericDay 9y ago
  I think your prediction of how things would play out is just wrong. Employers usually have an HR team that is dedicated to knowing what the labor market looks like. They may not know exactly your previous salary, but they keep very up to date tabs on industry trends. They also know exactly how their current human resources are paid. You know nothing except your past salary. They have more cards than you do. Public salary means they know your past salary, but it also means you know what they pay their current employees, and can negotiate accordingly. The only way this is not beneficial to any given employee is if they think they are a huge positive outlier. edit bc hn limits me if I post like 3 times in short succession: I don't think you understand the public policy implications of this. The vast, vast majority of people aren't negotiating 20k increases. And people who are negotiating far more, like CEOs, do fine even with public information out there. The equation here is one of giving employees more bargaining power over employers. An insignificant proportion of employees currently benefit from secrecy, and many of them aren't even sure they benefit, they just suspect they do. If it's all "rounding errors", as you say, consider how this alters the dynamics between you and your bosses, not only between you and your peers.
  - charlesdm 9y ago
    So what you're saying is that there basically is no room for negotiation, because it would deviate too much from the standard scale? e.g. a company needs someone for X, and will fix pay around €XX,000. At any big company, you need to make sure they want to hire you first. Once you have done that, pay becomes irrelevant because mentally they have already hired you. It's a rounding error on a budget. And it often is not even their own budget. You would be surprised at how easy it is to negotiate a €20k salary increase by just saying: I'd love to work here, but we need to figure out a salary range that works for both. And if they lowball you (which they probably will), you just counter and take it from there.
    - RonanTheGrey 9y ago
      There's another scenario that is becoming more common, especially in the company where I work: Changing countries by changing jobs. The markets are dramatically different so any salary comparison makes no sense. Instead you have to compare level and experience, which is what we should be basing salary decisions on in the first place.
petre 9y ago
You can share salary data with your peers if you wish to do so and you think its in your best interest. Norway is largely a socialist society and they accept being heavily taxed and publicly sharing salary data. Taxes are on par with Denmark, Sweeden and maybe Finland. English/US culture is different and more capitalist. It encourages individuals to do better for themselves, it encourages competition, just like in nature. They have the highest millionaire rate per inhabitant mainly because it doesn't have many inhabitants and it's an oil rich country.
- jerrylives 9y ago
  > it encourages competition, just like in nature. you know that cooperation occurs in nature too?
  - petre 9y ago
    Yes and so does in capitalism. Some forms of cooperation are having a distribution chain for your products; other forms are called price fixing. The difference is that in capitalism cooperation occurs naturaly while in socialist societies it's largely state regulated.
    - ue_ 9y ago
      Is there any evidence for this? Some prominent Socialists would disagree with you, especially anarchist ones, such as Bakunin, Kropotkin and probably even Marx and Engels themselves.
- cloverich 9y ago
  Are taxes in general anti-capitalist? Is publishing salaries anti-capitalist? When I think of anti-capitalism, I think of government owned entities, government backed (directly, or via regulation) industries, and things like tariffs. I know Norway qualifies as socialist for other reasons, but i don't see high income taxes as a stand-alone reason. Is that a reasonable argument? > It encourages individuals to do better for themselves, it encourages competition, just like in nature. Nature is savage and cruel. I think there are better arguments to be had in favor of capitalism.

charlesdm 9y ago

>> When relying on a lack of data/information, the only one that gets increased leverage is your employer, not you and your smart argument of "you just don't need to tell the others, boss <wink>". This makes no sense. Why wouldn't you be able to figure out how much others are making? There's plenty of data you can gather, online and from talking to people. Just because data is not public doesn't mean no one is willing to share how much they're making. If I'm making $50k, and I tell a new company I want $100k at a new job, there is no way that will fly if they know you're making $50k. But with opacity on salary, proper arguments and decent negotiating skills that is definitely achievable. One example: as a consultant, I have (in the past) easily doubled and/or tripled my rate at times, just based on the setting and by negotiating well. That would never work if everything was public. And in the end, the client was extremely happy with the result + I was happy with the (way above average) increased rate. >> Norway's tax rate is on par with other Nordic countries: high but nothing exceptional, and you get plenty of benefits (basically you get what you paid for). It's not stopping anybody from trying to make it. As a matter of fact they have one of the highest rate of millionaires per inhabitant (close to 200k for 5M). Perhaps. But that's also because of the problematic real estate bubble in Norway and Oslo. In a country where everything is highly taxed, certain asset classes (in this case real estate) get distorted if they are taxed lower. Add to that the reserves in their sovereign wealth fund, and you end up with many millionaires. There's a reason why Tesla was selling a ton of cars in Denmark, and sales plummeted (down from a few hundred to 6 of 8 cars in 6 months?) when they got rid of the tax credit. Benefits and healthcare are great and important -- I'm not saying you need super low taxes. What I'm saying is, if you don't specifically need to be in Norway to build out your business, e.g. it's something internet based, there are better countries to base yourself. Norway is a great country to visit though. I (personally) just couldn't live there, because I don't think the model of such a society would work for me. It's great to be able to have a bottle of wine with friends in a restaurant, without having to pay €300 for your meal + drinks in an average restaurant.

RodericDay 9y ago
I think your prediction of how things would play out is just wrong. Employers usually have an HR team that is dedicated to knowing what the labor market looks like. They may not know exactly your previous salary, but they keep very up to date tabs on industry trends. They also know exactly how their current human resources are paid. You know nothing except your past salary. They have more cards than you do. Public salary means they know your past salary, but it also means you know what they pay their current employees, and can negotiate accordingly. The only way this is not beneficial to any given employee is if they think they are a huge positive outlier. edit bc hn limits me if I post like 3 times in short succession: I don't think you understand the public policy implications of this. The vast, vast majority of people aren't negotiating 20k increases. And people who are negotiating far more, like CEOs, do fine even with public information out there. The equation here is one of giving employees more bargaining power over employers. An insignificant proportion of employees currently benefit from secrecy, and many of them aren't even sure they benefit, they just suspect they do. If it's all "rounding errors", as you say, consider how this alters the dynamics between you and your bosses, not only between you and your peers.
- charlesdm 9y ago
  So what you're saying is that there basically is no room for negotiation, because it would deviate too much from the standard scale? e.g. a company needs someone for X, and will fix pay around €XX,000. At any big company, you need to make sure they want to hire you first. Once you have done that, pay becomes irrelevant because mentally they have already hired you. It's a rounding error on a budget. And it often is not even their own budget. You would be surprised at how easy it is to negotiate a €20k salary increase by just saying: I'd love to work here, but we need to figure out a salary range that works for both. And if they lowball you (which they probably will), you just counter and take it from there.
  - RonanTheGrey 9y ago
    There's another scenario that is becoming more common, especially in the company where I work: Changing countries by changing jobs. The markets are dramatically different so any salary comparison makes no sense. Instead you have to compare level and experience, which is what we should be basing salary decisions on in the first place.

petre 9y ago

You can share salary data with your peers if you wish to do so and you think its in your best interest. Norway is largely a socialist society and they accept being heavily taxed and publicly sharing salary data. Taxes are on par with Denmark, Sweeden and maybe Finland. English/US culture is different and more capitalist. It encourages individuals to do better for themselves, it encourages competition, just like in nature. They have the highest millionaire rate per inhabitant mainly because it doesn't have many inhabitants and it's an oil rich country.

jerrylives 9y ago
> it encourages competition, just like in nature. you know that cooperation occurs in nature too?
- petre 9y ago
  Yes and so does in capitalism. Some forms of cooperation are having a distribution chain for your products; other forms are called price fixing. The difference is that in capitalism cooperation occurs naturaly while in socialist societies it's largely state regulated.
  - ue_ 9y ago
    Is there any evidence for this? Some prominent Socialists would disagree with you, especially anarchist ones, such as Bakunin, Kropotkin and probably even Marx and Engels themselves.
cloverich 9y ago
Are taxes in general anti-capitalist? Is publishing salaries anti-capitalist? When I think of anti-capitalism, I think of government owned entities, government backed (directly, or via regulation) industries, and things like tariffs. I know Norway qualifies as socialist for other reasons, but i don't see high income taxes as a stand-alone reason. Is that a reasonable argument? > It encourages individuals to do better for themselves, it encourages competition, just like in nature. Nature is savage and cruel. I think there are better arguments to be had in favor of capitalism.