5 ms·

Should browsers have an expiration date?

10 points by cool-RR 16y ago

apop 16y ago
silly idea
- cool-RR 16y ago
  You're on HN; You are expected to be slightly more articulate in your criticism.
antichaos 16y ago
Shouldn't all software have a clearly labelled expiration date like dairy products do?
- cool-RR 16y ago
  That's a more general, interesting question. Having an expiration date to software is kind of annoying, and I think that it shouldn't be done in general. But, when it comes to browsers, I think this would be so helpful to the progress of the web that it would be worth the annoyance.
  - albertzeyer 16y ago
    For software which could be interesting also far in the future (I only can think of games or other somewhat artistic software), I would make it in a way that the expiration date check is only done if the software is able to find an update.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  Last year I used a computer that actually had a 486 cpu, whose only method of data transfer was floppy, and would have choked on anything other than the DOS it was loaded with. It had a power ROCKER, not a power button. It was probably about 20 years old. It did it's job admirably- load EEPROM chips with it's paired, equally archaic EEPROM burner. There is really no reason to replace it, besides saving you the annoyance of using floppies. So, in a word what I am saying is computers that are tools need not have an expiration date. Their software does not need to be updated, because there is nothing wrong with it. Do you upgrade your 1970's corded drill just because it's old? No. It may not be pretty, but it does the job.
  - j_baker 16y ago
    How many security vulnerabilities does your power drill have? Is all the wood you get backwards-compatible with it?
  - phn 16y ago
    I could not agree more, if I download a software, I am the one who decides when and for what purpose I use it. I agree that people should be strongly recommended to update, or (as in Google Chrome) update automatically if possible, but refusing to boot is just plain wrong.
albertzeyer 16y ago
I prefer silent updates.
- cool-RR 16y ago
  Silent updates should definitely be done, but they will not work under all scenarios. (e.g. computers that reinitialize themselves on every reboot like in some universities, computers that aren't connected to the Internet like in some paranoid companies, etc.)
  - mattw 16y ago
    In these situations the expiration date idea wouldn't work either because they would either find a workaround or refuse to install your software at all, knowing that it forces them to go through the upgrade process in the future (and on your timeframe instead of theirs to boot).
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    Browsers that are never connected to the internet (IMHO) can safely be considered a non-issue.
xenophanes 16y ago
Unfortunately this is an anti-feature: no one will choose a browser for himself b/c he wants it, and some ppl might avoid browsers with it. I guess the only way it could be good for market share is I might want to install a browser like this for someone else, so they'll end up upgrading eventually even if I'm not around anymore. I'd be happy to mass install it at a big company if I could get away with it. Then even if I'm not there later, something good will happen.
- cool-RR 16y ago
  I think that you are overrating the thinking process that users have. Most users are not like you. They don't carefully consider the pros and cons of the software they install. Most users are like, "It's shiny, let's install it!" Okay, I'm exaggerating, but I'm saying that the vast majority of users would still download and install Firefox/Chrome even if they had an expiration date.
  - xenophanes 16y ago
    Why do people like that download FF/Chrome at all? They already have IE 8 I imagine.
    - Pheter 16y ago
      I know a lot of non-technical people who install, and even recommend, Chrome because it is "the fasted browser ever". They have no idea about web standards but still have an incentive to try a new browser.
Dilpil 16y ago
Many corporate IT departments run old browsers because they make use of proprietary intranet web applications and don't feel like developing them on multiple platforms. To them, this system would seem pretty stupid, and indeed, would prevent them from ever upgrading into new expiring browser versions.
zweben 16y ago
I would love this as much as any other web designer or developer, but sadly, it's just not feasible. The biggest problem with upgrades is that lots of companies rely on specific versions of specific browsers for in-house websites and web apps. Expiration dates essentially amount to browser makers saying 'too bad, fix your software'. This would be amusing, but realistically, Microsoft would never do such a thing, and without Microsoft on board, not much will change. The best compromise I can think of is for browser vendors to decouple updates of web-technology support (HTML, CSS, JS, Canvas, etc.) from updates of user-facing features, the things that get advertised when an full point upgrade is released, and start pushing out HTML, CSS and JS upgrades automatically, in the background. Once the first round of such browsers were widely adopted, browser upgrades would cease to be an issue at all. Upgrade averse users could keep their old versions with familiar interfaces and still have cutting edge standards support. This leaves the problem of getting the first round of upgrades through, but that could be solved by building in backwards compatibility for all currently popular version of a browser. This would be a pain, but would only have to happen once. If Microsoft, for example, gave IE9 full backwards compatibility with IE8, 7 and 6, and made future rendering updates automatic, there would be very little excuse left for any company to stick with an older version of IE.
- devicenull 16y ago
  I don't think it's the UI that breaks legacy applications.. it's the rendering engine. Automatically pushing out upgrades to the rendering engine would be as bad as forcing upgrades from IE6->IE8.
  - zweben 16y ago
    I think you misread what I wrote. I was suggesting separate updates for the rendering engine to solve the problem of upgrade-averse users. Legacy applications would be accommodated by keeping older rendering engines running beside a newer, automatically updating engine. The idea is to remove roadblocks to getting everyone to upgrade, and then make it so that upgrading the browser version is no longer necessary to maintain current standards support.
fleitz 16y ago
How do you download a new browser when your old one is expired?
- cool-RR 16y ago
  The expiration dialog will download one for you.
joejohnson 16y ago
It wouldn't bode well for public relations between the browser designer and the user. I see the reasoning this guy has, but this proposal is literally planned obsolescence. That's a scary notion to a user (or consumer).
fleitz 16y ago
The issue is that doing this is forcing the issues of a few people on to a much larger set. If someone doesn't want to write code for that browser just don't. If they're feeling really nice, pop an error message telling them that their browser is expired. Oh, whats that? now the site isn't going to bring in as much revenue? Now they have a choice, whether the revenue is worth more to them than writing the code.
- cool-RR 16y ago
  Those "few people", a.k.a. web developers, are those that are responsible for progress and innovation on the Internet. If they have a problem, the Internet has a problem.
gmurphy 16y ago
This is why Chrome has built-in silent autoupdate - the vast majority of our users are on the a new version within a week of releasing it. See graphs: http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/#slide38.0 http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/#slide38.0 The shallow curve is our development and beta channel users, the steep part of the curve is when we release a stable version. Previous slides show known update rates for other browsers.
- albertzeyer 16y ago
  Here is the graph. The site sucks pretty bad (seems to require a very high resolution and has disabled scrollbars). http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/chrome_version_migration.png http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/chrome_version_migra... http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/firefox_version_migration.png http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/firefox_version_migr... http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/ie_version_migration.png http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/ie_version_migration...
petercooper 16y ago
Could the big browser makers all agree to set expiration dates on all their browsers? They could! It'd be as much a runaway success as software expiration was for eradicating piracy, and I doubt anyone is competent enough to roll out cracks or patches to "fix" people's broken browsers.
- wmf 16y ago
  I think the situation is different. If your browser expired, would you (A) search for a crack or (B) click the "update to latest version" link?
whirlycott1 16y ago
You know, we effectively had this back in 1995 or 1996 when Netscape would release betas. Each version would expire and require you to upgrade a few months afterwards. The Web was very different back then, but I think that this could possibly work for browsers like Safari where there aren't a bunch of folks with plugins. But breaking my favorite Firefox plug because the plugin creator was on vacation for six months and missed a browser upgrade would be not so cool.
chbarts 16y ago
This would have a huge impact on overall security: How many spammers and other vermin rely on the fact IE6's vulnerabilities are still so common? Forcing browsers off the web before they get to be that much of a problem would force them to work harder and might even make it unprofitable for some of them to continue.

10 points by cool-RR 16y ago

apop 16y ago

silly idea

cool-RR 16y ago
You're on HN; You are expected to be slightly more articulate in your criticism.

antichaos 16y ago

Shouldn't all software have a clearly labelled expiration date like dairy products do?

cool-RR 16y ago
That's a more general, interesting question. Having an expiration date to software is kind of annoying, and I think that it shouldn't be done in general. But, when it comes to browsers, I think this would be so helpful to the progress of the web that it would be worth the annoyance.
- albertzeyer 16y ago
  For software which could be interesting also far in the future (I only can think of games or other somewhat artistic software), I would make it in a way that the expiration date check is only done if the software is able to find an update.
sliverstorm 16y ago
Last year I used a computer that actually had a 486 cpu, whose only method of data transfer was floppy, and would have choked on anything other than the DOS it was loaded with. It had a power ROCKER, not a power button. It was probably about 20 years old. It did it's job admirably- load EEPROM chips with it's paired, equally archaic EEPROM burner. There is really no reason to replace it, besides saving you the annoyance of using floppies. So, in a word what I am saying is computers that are tools need not have an expiration date. Their software does not need to be updated, because there is nothing wrong with it. Do you upgrade your 1970's corded drill just because it's old? No. It may not be pretty, but it does the job.
- j_baker 16y ago
  How many security vulnerabilities does your power drill have? Is all the wood you get backwards-compatible with it?
- phn 16y ago
  I could not agree more, if I download a software, I am the one who decides when and for what purpose I use it. I agree that people should be strongly recommended to update, or (as in Google Chrome) update automatically if possible, but refusing to boot is just plain wrong.

albertzeyer 16y ago

I prefer silent updates.

cool-RR 16y ago
Silent updates should definitely be done, but they will not work under all scenarios. (e.g. computers that reinitialize themselves on every reboot like in some universities, computers that aren't connected to the Internet like in some paranoid companies, etc.)
- mattw 16y ago
  In these situations the expiration date idea wouldn't work either because they would either find a workaround or refuse to install your software at all, knowing that it forces them to go through the upgrade process in the future (and on your timeframe instead of theirs to boot).
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  Browsers that are never connected to the internet (IMHO) can safely be considered a non-issue.

xenophanes 16y ago

Unfortunately this is an anti-feature: no one will choose a browser for himself b/c he wants it, and some ppl might avoid browsers with it. I guess the only way it could be good for market share is I might want to install a browser like this for someone else, so they'll end up upgrading eventually even if I'm not around anymore. I'd be happy to mass install it at a big company if I could get away with it. Then even if I'm not there later, something good will happen.

cool-RR 16y ago
I think that you are overrating the thinking process that users have. Most users are not like you. They don't carefully consider the pros and cons of the software they install. Most users are like, "It's shiny, let's install it!" Okay, I'm exaggerating, but I'm saying that the vast majority of users would still download and install Firefox/Chrome even if they had an expiration date.
- xenophanes 16y ago
  Why do people like that download FF/Chrome at all? They already have IE 8 I imagine.
  - Pheter 16y ago
    I know a lot of non-technical people who install, and even recommend, Chrome because it is "the fasted browser ever". They have no idea about web standards but still have an incentive to try a new browser.

Dilpil 16y ago

Many corporate IT departments run old browsers because they make use of proprietary intranet web applications and don't feel like developing them on multiple platforms. To them, this system would seem pretty stupid, and indeed, would prevent them from ever upgrading into new expiring browser versions.

zweben 16y ago

I would love this as much as any other web designer or developer, but sadly, it's just not feasible. The biggest problem with upgrades is that lots of companies rely on specific versions of specific browsers for in-house websites and web apps. Expiration dates essentially amount to browser makers saying 'too bad, fix your software'. This would be amusing, but realistically, Microsoft would never do such a thing, and without Microsoft on board, not much will change. The best compromise I can think of is for browser vendors to decouple updates of web-technology support (HTML, CSS, JS, Canvas, etc.) from updates of user-facing features, the things that get advertised when an full point upgrade is released, and start pushing out HTML, CSS and JS upgrades automatically, in the background. Once the first round of such browsers were widely adopted, browser upgrades would cease to be an issue at all. Upgrade averse users could keep their old versions with familiar interfaces and still have cutting edge standards support. This leaves the problem of getting the first round of upgrades through, but that could be solved by building in backwards compatibility for all currently popular version of a browser. This would be a pain, but would only have to happen once. If Microsoft, for example, gave IE9 full backwards compatibility with IE8, 7 and 6, and made future rendering updates automatic, there would be very little excuse left for any company to stick with an older version of IE.

devicenull 16y ago
I don't think it's the UI that breaks legacy applications.. it's the rendering engine. Automatically pushing out upgrades to the rendering engine would be as bad as forcing upgrades from IE6->IE8.
- zweben 16y ago
  I think you misread what I wrote. I was suggesting separate updates for the rendering engine to solve the problem of upgrade-averse users. Legacy applications would be accommodated by keeping older rendering engines running beside a newer, automatically updating engine. The idea is to remove roadblocks to getting everyone to upgrade, and then make it so that upgrading the browser version is no longer necessary to maintain current standards support.

fleitz 16y ago

How do you download a new browser when your old one is expired?

cool-RR 16y ago
The expiration dialog will download one for you.

joejohnson 16y ago

It wouldn't bode well for public relations between the browser designer and the user. I see the reasoning this guy has, but this proposal is literally planned obsolescence. That's a scary notion to a user (or consumer).

fleitz 16y ago

The issue is that doing this is forcing the issues of a few people on to a much larger set. If someone doesn't want to write code for that browser just don't. If they're feeling really nice, pop an error message telling them that their browser is expired. Oh, whats that? now the site isn't going to bring in as much revenue? Now they have a choice, whether the revenue is worth more to them than writing the code.

cool-RR 16y ago
Those "few people", a.k.a. web developers, are those that are responsible for progress and innovation on the Internet. If they have a problem, the Internet has a problem.

gmurphy 16y ago

This is why Chrome has built-in silent autoupdate - the vast majority of our users are on the a new version within a week of releasing it. See graphs: http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/#slide38.0 http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/#slide38.0 The shallow curve is our development and beta channel users, the steep part of the curve is when we release a stable version. Previous slides show known update rates for other browsers.

albertzeyer 16y ago
Here is the graph. The site sucks pretty bad (seems to require a very high resolution and has disabled scrollbars). http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/chrome_version_migration.png http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/chrome_version_migra... http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/firefox_version_migration.png http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/firefox_version_migr... http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/ie_version_migration.png http://www.belshe.com/test/velocity2010/ie_version_migration...

petercooper 16y ago

Could the big browser makers all agree to set expiration dates on all their browsers? They could! It'd be as much a runaway success as software expiration was for eradicating piracy, and I doubt anyone is competent enough to roll out cracks or patches to "fix" people's broken browsers.

wmf 16y ago
I think the situation is different. If your browser expired, would you (A) search for a crack or (B) click the "update to latest version" link?

whirlycott1 16y ago

You know, we effectively had this back in 1995 or 1996 when Netscape would release betas. Each version would expire and require you to upgrade a few months afterwards. The Web was very different back then, but I think that this could possibly work for browsers like Safari where there aren't a bunch of folks with plugins. But breaking my favorite Firefox plug because the plugin creator was on vacation for six months and missed a browser upgrade would be not so cool.

chbarts 16y ago

This would have a huge impact on overall security: How many spammers and other vermin rely on the fact IE6's vulnerabilities are still so common? Forcing browsers off the web before they get to be that much of a problem would force them to work harder and might even make it unprofitable for some of them to continue.