6 ms·

Did StackOverFlow just lose it to MetaOptimize? And is it good or bad?

73 points by bravura 16y ago

Aaronontheweb 16y ago
Probably not given that precious, precious StackOverFlow karma is nontransferable :p
- jasonlotito 16y ago
  I know it's not on-topic, but karma and SO's structure and design makes SO the PHP of help sites. Make of that what you will.
  - mattmanser 16y ago
    c'mon dude, SO is pretty amazing. Poor answers are usually pushed to the bottom (though I have seen a fair few basic questions on SO with odd answers that no-one's bothered correcting). The equivalent of php is dodgy bulletin boards that still doggedly come top of some google searches. And boy do a lot of them have the entirely wrong solution. I'm starting to get to the point now where I ask SO first and then google, apart from Html questions.
    - duck 16y ago
      You can ask http://www.duckduckgo.com http://www.duckduckgo.com first now and get the best of both IMHO, since it started to integrate SO answers into its zero-click area.
    - jasonlotito 16y ago
      A dodgy bulletin board that provides what you are looking for.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  tangent startup idea: a web service for transferring or aggregating karma across sites, much like banks or Mint.com are to money
bravura 16y ago
The main reason I launched my Q+A site is because, if Area 51 had their druthers, they would have fragmented the community into five niches: machine learning (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/7607/machine-learning http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/7607/machine-learn...) NLP (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2761/natural-language-processing-and-computational-linguistics-nlp-cl http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2761/natural-langu...) statistical analysis (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/33/statistical-analysis http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/33/statistical-ana...) data mining (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/4229/data-mining http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/4229/data-mining) AI (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/6607/artificial-intelligence http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/6607/artificial-in...) This niching is completely wrongheaded. As I wrote in a comment on this blog post, the last thing we need is for ML people, NLP practitioners, and statisticians to communicate less. The fact that these groups attend different conferences is a BUG not a feature. My site was designed so that these adjacent fields can crosspolinate information. As we’ve learned from StackOverflow, it’s better to pick a broad topic and have a lot of experts in one place, communicating and helping with each other’s problems.
- ErrantX 16y ago
  As we’ve learned from StackOverflow, it’s better to pick a broad topic and have a lot of experts in one place, communicating and helping with each other’s problems Yeh, solid point. All the current sites are highly active because of their broad domain overview.
- spolsky 16y ago
  I don't think that it's a foregone conclusion that Area51 generates niche sites, just because it generates niche site proposals. I for one believe that it's the big blockbuster stackoverflow-size sites that will actually make it to the end of the Area 51 process and will actually get created. And, if I were a betting man, I wouldn't bet against StackOverflow's monthly 7 million users. In fact I would be betting on the statistics Stack Exchange site launching in the next couple of weeks and getting critical mass very very quickly.
  - deleted 16y ago
billstr 16y ago
probably not given that MetaOptimze has a whopping 300 users, submitting 59 questions and 129 answers.
- bravura 16y ago
  Which is just slightly shy of the 360 that are "committed" to the statistical analysis Area 51 site: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/33/statistical-analysis http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/33/statistical-ana... and is far more than 69 for AI (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/6607/artificial-intelligence http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/6607/artificial-in...), 40 for ML (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/7607/machine-learning http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/7607/machine-learn...), 16 for NLP (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2761/natural-language-processing-and-computational-linguistics-nlp-cl http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2761/natural-langu...), 5 for data mining (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/4229/data-mining http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/4229/data-mining). (The original blog author means Area 51, not StackOverflow per se.)
  - michael_dorfman 16y ago
    And this is the crux of the biscuit. A large measure of StackOverflow's success-- perhaps the most significant factor-- was the immediate traction that came from readers of Joel and Jeff's blogs. SO had a ready-made audience, due to the notability of its sponsors. It's not at all clear to me that this is scalable via the Area51 model. Clearly, it takes more than 360 people to make a site successful. The question is: who is in the best position to attract the attention of the prospective users quickly and effectively? Time will tell, I suppose.
    - ErrantX 16y ago
      The question is: who is in the best position to attract the attention of the prospective users quickly and effectively? I'm willing to bet bravura at this point. Simply because he has the traction way way before the Stackexchange versions launch plus he has all the communities together. All it needs is a little momentum and Area 51 sites will struggle to catch it.
naner 16y ago
> I do believe that the stackoverflow people have (much) more experience in handling such websites then Joseph. I can very easily trust them to do regular database backups Except, you know, for that time when the stack overflow guys lost everything on their blog due to "catastrophic data loss" and also subsequently found out that their backups were toast, too. :P I kid, I kid... Just use the site that is currently operational, this isn't really a life-altering decision. (Right now I am agonizing if I should submit this comment to hacker news or reddit.) EDIT: On an unrelated note, my IP appears to be banned from StackOverflow.com. I have never used/abused the site (I don't even have an account there) outside of browsing a few times. It has been banned for at least half a year. Very annoying. Even the big guys get stuff wrong sometimes.
- replrepl 16y ago
  I believe the data loss was on Jeff Atwood's personal blog codinghorror.com, not Stack Overflow, and it was due to outsourcing the hosting/backup to an (incompetent) third party.
  - AgentConundrum 16y ago
    It wasn't just Coding Horror that got hit. The StackOverflow blog was also gone for days. StackOverflow (meaning the QA site itself) wasn't affected. Also, the point still stands that Jeff should have had his own backups as well, rather than assuming his provider had it properly covered. Part of a good backup strategy is testing recovery which is apparently nobody associated with StackOverflow had bothered to try before that incident.
- MichaelGG 16y ago
  A while back I was in Guatemala and kept getting an HTTP 403. mailed them and it turns out they blocked the entire country because they were getting hit "1,000 times a day". After a couple more emails they unblocked it again.
petercooper 16y ago
Having listened to Joel and Jeff go on about the new StackOverflow ideas on their podcast, as well as in blog posts, it seems they're being utopian with the whole "people don't care about money or control, they just want to help" bit. Running your own site and having control over how it works is important for a lot of people. If it weren't, geeks wouldn't self host WordPress for their personal blogs - they'd use Blogger or WordPress.com. I'm glad that pg developed HN as a new, separate thing instead of rolling it out on Ning or whatever system was flavor of the day 1300 days ago. Likewise, it seems good that someone has a deep enough passion to set up MetaOptimize as a separate site, because they might actually bother to keep it up to date whereas SO might become the next Ning or Blogger over time. No matter how bouncy SO's castle may be, true geeks like to build their own castles, even if they're not quite as shiny.
code_duck 16y ago
I'd be rather offended if I designed Stack Overflow. I've had my work carefully copied in the past, and even aside from the economics, it's not a good feeling. This site needs to step back and decide which of the design decisions they made were because "we're duplicating stack overflow" and which are simply the straightforward way to accomplish whatever. It has the exact same layout, the same format, the visual similarity. Even the footer. Come on... at least design your own footer.
- TalGalili 16y ago
  I get what you are saying. I do wonder if they ever responded to that...
ck2 16y ago
r-statistics.com needs to turn their text to black. There is zero contrast with light grey text on white!
- TalGalili 16y ago
  Thanks, you are the first to note me to that. I fixed it (hit SHIFT+refresh if you don't see the update).
  - aw3c2 16y ago
    Please also do not overlay a grey "JavaScript for Mobile Safari is currently turned off" layer that you cannot remove without Javascript. The site seems to render readable in the background. I am using Opera and only enable Javascript if necessary for crucial things.
    - TalGalili 16y ago
      I am not sure how to do that. I'll look into it in the near future. Thanks again!
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
TalGalili 16y ago
I am the original author of the post. I just updated it with comments from people here, and with having a lengthy e-mail exchange with MetaOptimize founder. Hope this gives a more balanced voice for people to respond to.
bravura 16y ago
UPDATE: After email exchanges with me, Tal (the author of the post) updated it to include a more balanced discussion, and posted some quotes by me explaining my side.

73 points by bravura 16y ago

Aaronontheweb 16y ago

Probably not given that precious, precious StackOverFlow karma is nontransferable :p

jasonlotito 16y ago
I know it's not on-topic, but karma and SO's structure and design makes SO the PHP of help sites. Make of that what you will.
- mattmanser 16y ago
  c'mon dude, SO is pretty amazing. Poor answers are usually pushed to the bottom (though I have seen a fair few basic questions on SO with odd answers that no-one's bothered correcting). The equivalent of php is dodgy bulletin boards that still doggedly come top of some google searches. And boy do a lot of them have the entirely wrong solution. I'm starting to get to the point now where I ask SO first and then google, apart from Html questions.
  - duck 16y ago
    You can ask http://www.duckduckgo.com http://www.duckduckgo.com first now and get the best of both IMHO, since it started to integrate SO answers into its zero-click area.
  - jasonlotito 16y ago
    A dodgy bulletin board that provides what you are looking for.
mkramlich 16y ago
tangent startup idea: a web service for transferring or aggregating karma across sites, much like banks or Mint.com are to money

bravura 16y ago

The main reason I launched my Q+A site is because, if Area 51 had their druthers, they would have fragmented the community into five niches: machine learning (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/7607/machine-learning http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/7607/machine-learn...) NLP (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2761/natural-language-processing-and-computational-linguistics-nlp-cl http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2761/natural-langu...) statistical analysis (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/33/statistical-analysis http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/33/statistical-ana...) data mining (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/4229/data-mining http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/4229/data-mining) AI (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/6607/artificial-intelligence http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/6607/artificial-in...) This niching is completely wrongheaded. As I wrote in a comment on this blog post, the last thing we need is for ML people, NLP practitioners, and statisticians to communicate less. The fact that these groups attend different conferences is a BUG not a feature. My site was designed so that these adjacent fields can crosspolinate information. As we’ve learned from StackOverflow, it’s better to pick a broad topic and have a lot of experts in one place, communicating and helping with each other’s problems.

ErrantX 16y ago
As we’ve learned from StackOverflow, it’s better to pick a broad topic and have a lot of experts in one place, communicating and helping with each other’s problems Yeh, solid point. All the current sites are highly active because of their broad domain overview.
spolsky 16y ago
I don't think that it's a foregone conclusion that Area51 generates niche sites, just because it generates niche site proposals. I for one believe that it's the big blockbuster stackoverflow-size sites that will actually make it to the end of the Area 51 process and will actually get created. And, if I were a betting man, I wouldn't bet against StackOverflow's monthly 7 million users. In fact I would be betting on the statistics Stack Exchange site launching in the next couple of weeks and getting critical mass very very quickly.
- deleted 16y ago

billstr 16y ago

probably not given that MetaOptimze has a whopping 300 users, submitting 59 questions and 129 answers.

bravura 16y ago
Which is just slightly shy of the 360 that are "committed" to the statistical analysis Area 51 site: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/33/statistical-analysis http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/33/statistical-ana... and is far more than 69 for AI (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/6607/artificial-intelligence http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/6607/artificial-in...), 40 for ML (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/7607/machine-learning http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/7607/machine-learn...), 16 for NLP (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2761/natural-language-processing-and-computational-linguistics-nlp-cl http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/2761/natural-langu...), 5 for data mining (http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/4229/data-mining http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/4229/data-mining). (The original blog author means Area 51, not StackOverflow per se.)
- michael_dorfman 16y ago
  And this is the crux of the biscuit. A large measure of StackOverflow's success-- perhaps the most significant factor-- was the immediate traction that came from readers of Joel and Jeff's blogs. SO had a ready-made audience, due to the notability of its sponsors. It's not at all clear to me that this is scalable via the Area51 model. Clearly, it takes more than 360 people to make a site successful. The question is: who is in the best position to attract the attention of the prospective users quickly and effectively? Time will tell, I suppose.
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    The question is: who is in the best position to attract the attention of the prospective users quickly and effectively? I'm willing to bet bravura at this point. Simply because he has the traction way way before the Stackexchange versions launch plus he has all the communities together. All it needs is a little momentum and Area 51 sites will struggle to catch it.

naner 16y ago

> I do believe that the stackoverflow people have (much) more experience in handling such websites then Joseph. I can very easily trust them to do regular database backups Except, you know, for that time when the stack overflow guys lost everything on their blog due to "catastrophic data loss" and also subsequently found out that their backups were toast, too. :P I kid, I kid... Just use the site that is currently operational, this isn't really a life-altering decision. (Right now I am agonizing if I should submit this comment to hacker news or reddit.) EDIT: On an unrelated note, my IP appears to be banned from StackOverflow.com. I have never used/abused the site (I don't even have an account there) outside of browsing a few times. It has been banned for at least half a year. Very annoying. Even the big guys get stuff wrong sometimes.

replrepl 16y ago
I believe the data loss was on Jeff Atwood's personal blog codinghorror.com, not Stack Overflow, and it was due to outsourcing the hosting/backup to an (incompetent) third party.
- AgentConundrum 16y ago
  It wasn't just Coding Horror that got hit. The StackOverflow blog was also gone for days. StackOverflow (meaning the QA site itself) wasn't affected. Also, the point still stands that Jeff should have had his own backups as well, rather than assuming his provider had it properly covered. Part of a good backup strategy is testing recovery which is apparently nobody associated with StackOverflow had bothered to try before that incident.
MichaelGG 16y ago
A while back I was in Guatemala and kept getting an HTTP 403. mailed them and it turns out they blocked the entire country because they were getting hit "1,000 times a day". After a couple more emails they unblocked it again.

petercooper 16y ago

Having listened to Joel and Jeff go on about the new StackOverflow ideas on their podcast, as well as in blog posts, it seems they're being utopian with the whole "people don't care about money or control, they just want to help" bit. Running your own site and having control over how it works is important for a lot of people. If it weren't, geeks wouldn't self host WordPress for their personal blogs - they'd use Blogger or WordPress.com. I'm glad that pg developed HN as a new, separate thing instead of rolling it out on Ning or whatever system was flavor of the day 1300 days ago. Likewise, it seems good that someone has a deep enough passion to set up MetaOptimize as a separate site, because they might actually bother to keep it up to date whereas SO might become the next Ning or Blogger over time. No matter how bouncy SO's castle may be, true geeks like to build their own castles, even if they're not quite as shiny.

code_duck 16y ago

I'd be rather offended if I designed Stack Overflow. I've had my work carefully copied in the past, and even aside from the economics, it's not a good feeling. This site needs to step back and decide which of the design decisions they made were because "we're duplicating stack overflow" and which are simply the straightforward way to accomplish whatever. It has the exact same layout, the same format, the visual similarity. Even the footer. Come on... at least design your own footer.

TalGalili 16y ago
I get what you are saying. I do wonder if they ever responded to that...

ck2 16y ago

r-statistics.com needs to turn their text to black. There is zero contrast with light grey text on white!

TalGalili 16y ago
Thanks, you are the first to note me to that. I fixed it (hit SHIFT+refresh if you don't see the update).
- aw3c2 16y ago
  Please also do not overlay a grey "JavaScript for Mobile Safari is currently turned off" layer that you cannot remove without Javascript. The site seems to render readable in the background. I am using Opera and only enable Javascript if necessary for crucial things.
  - TalGalili 16y ago
    I am not sure how to do that. I'll look into it in the near future. Thanks again!

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

TalGalili 16y ago

I am the original author of the post. I just updated it with comments from people here, and with having a lengthy e-mail exchange with MetaOptimize founder. Hope this gives a more balanced voice for people to respond to.

bravura 16y ago

UPDATE: After email exchanges with me, Tal (the author of the post) updated it to include a more balanced discussion, and posted some quotes by me explaining my side.