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They call this a challenge? Closures and a nested unordered list CSS menu. Wow! What's with the CS degree _requirement_ too? You don't really need 4 years of a

by hab 16y ago

They call this a challenge? Closures and a nested unordered list CSS menu. Wow! What's with the CS degree _requirement_ too? You don't really need 4 years of algorithms, data structures, operating systems, etc. to do what they want. Meh, do not want.

9oliYQjP 16y ago
The challenge questions are to filter out completely inappropriate candidates. They aren't meant to determine if you're a genius or not. As for the CS degree requirement, not having one myself I run up against this all the time. A good company will be able to test for equivalent capabilities. A CS degree from DeVry in 1995 is probably not the same as one from Stanford in 2006. But by setting it out as a requirement, you're sending a message to candidates. They don't want a programmer that stumbles about their job. They want one with certain analytical skills and a calculated approach to their job. No, you don't need a CS degree necessarily. But you probably want to be familiar with the material that having a CS degree would suggest you are familiar with. No hiring manager worth their salt would turn away an exceptional candidate because of a lack of formal education unless there were some very specific professional requirements (e.g., you're hiring a professional engineer in countries that recognize them and you need somebody with a B.Eng. degree).
- hab 16y ago
  They shouldn't call it a "challenge" then, it should be called a CAPTCHA or something to that effect. As for the CS degree requirement, no candidate worth their salt would send their resume to a place knowing that they lack the first item on the requirements list. You need to make it clear that you read and understood the post before applying (a.k.a. following simple directions). They didn't put it under "nice-to-have", they didn't tuck "or equivalent experience" at the end. It's the first bullet on their "minimum-requirements" list. I do not have a CS degree either, but I believe I can code with the best of them and I can rock their front-end world (I do not want this job though). Had I been seriously looking for another job, I would have simply ignored their post and moved on regardless of compatibility because of that one liner.
  - 9oliYQjP 16y ago
    You don't just send a resume, you send a covering letter too. In the covering letter you can write "I understand that the position calls for XYZ as a requirement..." and go on to explain why you think you are qualified none-the-less. That means you have basic comprehension skills and an ability to think outside of the box too.
    - axod 16y ago
      I disagree. If any job asks for degree etc I just ignore it. I don't think I'd enjoy working at a place where they value that sort of thing.
      - erlanger 16y ago
        Agreed. Same reason I won't work at a place that wants my piss.
      - natrius 16y ago
        That doesn't sound like a very accurate heuristic...
      - nostrademons 16y ago
        By doing this, you're probably filtering out many good employers. Just like the places that ask for degrees are probably filtering out many good candidates. I just ignore the requirements - mostly - and if the job sounds interesting, I'll send them a note saying why it sounds interesting and why I believe I'm qualified. Let 'em reject me later, once they've got a bit more information, or vice versa.
    - hab 16y ago
      This is a sincere question: have you ever been on the other side of the hiring process before? I have, as a tech lead for a software company. I don't know how other places do it, but there's simply not enough time in the day to read every single resume/cover letter that you get. You post a job-ad and you're drowning in resume`s and cover letters in less than 30 minutes. I also want to say that 80-90% were under-qualified and most of them didn't even follow simple instructions in the ad. You won't believe the amount of cover letters saying things like "I have never used Linux, but I've been working on Windows for X-XX years", when the job title was "Senior Linux Systems Administrator". When we put requirements, we really meant them. We never inflated the requirements or asked for the impossible (28+ years experience in PHP). Our process went kind of like this: 1) Scan cover letter quickly to weed out incoherent applications 2) Scan resume (again quickly) and look for minimum-requirements 3) If 1 and 2 were met put resume/cover letter in the "good candidates" folder 4) If "inbox" is not empty, go to step one, otherwise: 5) Go back and read cover-letters/resumes in more detail The one exception would be if something in the cover letter or resume caught our attention, we'd then read it in detail then and there. For all I know, DropBox might have a serious need to have this position filled by a CS graduate. I doubt it, but it's a possibility. Another commenter here said something about planning to have this position evolve into something more "intense" in the future where a CS degree would be seriously needed. That's a legitimate "theory". All I was criticizing was that the job requirements do not warrant a CS degree, and that they are probably turning away possible good/great candidates.

by hab 16y ago

9oliYQjP 16y ago

The challenge questions are to filter out completely inappropriate candidates. They aren't meant to determine if you're a genius or not. As for the CS degree requirement, not having one myself I run up against this all the time. A good company will be able to test for equivalent capabilities. A CS degree from DeVry in 1995 is probably not the same as one from Stanford in 2006. But by setting it out as a requirement, you're sending a message to candidates. They don't want a programmer that stumbles about their job. They want one with certain analytical skills and a calculated approach to their job. No, you don't need a CS degree necessarily. But you probably want to be familiar with the material that having a CS degree would suggest you are familiar with. No hiring manager worth their salt would turn away an exceptional candidate because of a lack of formal education unless there were some very specific professional requirements (e.g., you're hiring a professional engineer in countries that recognize them and you need somebody with a B.Eng. degree).

hab 16y ago
They shouldn't call it a "challenge" then, it should be called a CAPTCHA or something to that effect. As for the CS degree requirement, no candidate worth their salt would send their resume to a place knowing that they lack the first item on the requirements list. You need to make it clear that you read and understood the post before applying (a.k.a. following simple directions). They didn't put it under "nice-to-have", they didn't tuck "or equivalent experience" at the end. It's the first bullet on their "minimum-requirements" list. I do not have a CS degree either, but I believe I can code with the best of them and I can rock their front-end world (I do not want this job though). Had I been seriously looking for another job, I would have simply ignored their post and moved on regardless of compatibility because of that one liner.
- 9oliYQjP 16y ago
  You don't just send a resume, you send a covering letter too. In the covering letter you can write "I understand that the position calls for XYZ as a requirement..." and go on to explain why you think you are qualified none-the-less. That means you have basic comprehension skills and an ability to think outside of the box too.
  - axod 16y ago
    I disagree. If any job asks for degree etc I just ignore it. I don't think I'd enjoy working at a place where they value that sort of thing.
    - erlanger 16y ago
      Agreed. Same reason I won't work at a place that wants my piss.
    - natrius 16y ago
      That doesn't sound like a very accurate heuristic...
    - nostrademons 16y ago
      By doing this, you're probably filtering out many good employers. Just like the places that ask for degrees are probably filtering out many good candidates. I just ignore the requirements - mostly - and if the job sounds interesting, I'll send them a note saying why it sounds interesting and why I believe I'm qualified. Let 'em reject me later, once they've got a bit more information, or vice versa.
  - hab 16y ago
    This is a sincere question: have you ever been on the other side of the hiring process before? I have, as a tech lead for a software company. I don't know how other places do it, but there's simply not enough time in the day to read every single resume/cover letter that you get. You post a job-ad and you're drowning in resume`s and cover letters in less than 30 minutes. I also want to say that 80-90% were under-qualified and most of them didn't even follow simple instructions in the ad. You won't believe the amount of cover letters saying things like "I have never used Linux, but I've been working on Windows for X-XX years", when the job title was "Senior Linux Systems Administrator". When we put requirements, we really meant them. We never inflated the requirements or asked for the impossible (28+ years experience in PHP). Our process went kind of like this: 1) Scan cover letter quickly to weed out incoherent applications 2) Scan resume (again quickly) and look for minimum-requirements 3) If 1 and 2 were met put resume/cover letter in the "good candidates" folder 4) If "inbox" is not empty, go to step one, otherwise: 5) Go back and read cover-letters/resumes in more detail The one exception would be if something in the cover letter or resume caught our attention, we'd then read it in detail then and there. For all I know, DropBox might have a serious need to have this position filled by a CS graduate. I doubt it, but it's a possibility. Another commenter here said something about planning to have this position evolve into something more "intense" in the future where a CS degree would be seriously needed. That's a legitimate "theory". All I was criticizing was that the job requirements do not warrant a CS degree, and that they are probably turning away possible good/great candidates.