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People being better off now than earlier times in history is a straw man argument. That would be true regardless of the system we were under. That's a natural

People being better off now than earlier times in history is a straw man argument. That would be true regardless of the system we were under. That's a natural result of human intellectual progress and knowledge being passed down through generations. So people now get to live a little longer, travel farther and faster, and absorb more banal entertainment than ever before. Who gives a fuck? None of that matters in this context. The point you should focus on is how much of a share in the overall wealth and prosperity of their nation does a person have today? How much power and personal freedom? Is it growing or shrinking? It's shrinking and has been for decades. It's the increasing consolidation of wealth and the power and influence that naturally comes with that is why people are raging against a system that they can see has become totally unrestrained and rigged against them from birth. GDP is held up as the gold standard metric of measuring how well a nation is doing, but all it really tells you is how prosperous it ther 'country' is as on the macro level. It doesn't tell you that most of that wealth is concentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer people that are becoming obscenely wealthy while the lowest classes in society are becoming objectively poorer and less empowered to act. You rephrase the argument and a working class stiff what he wants more, a shinier, faster car and a higher-resolution TV , or a greater stake in the economy and the resulting benefits that naturally occur as part of that and he will tell you the latter every damn time. The problem is thinking like yours, where the proles should be happy that they get to be more consumerist and materialistic than ever before while the ones filling the world with shit nobody needs steal away the actual benefits of our system and entrench themselves for generations.

problems 9y ago
> That's a natural result of human intellectual progress and knowledge being passed down through generations. We have direct evidence that that is incorrect and any high school student knows it. Many, many times have we failed to progress due to being in systems that don't allow for it. > Is it growing or shrinking? Why would that matter to me as an individual? So long as my overall wealth is increasing, I don't care. I don't need to be making more than my neighbor to be happy with my life. As long as I still get the goods, I'm quite happy with this deal. This is just plain wrong in terms of a way to think about the economy or my life.
- ionised 9y ago
  > We have direct evidence that that is incorrect Post it. > Why would that matter to me as an individual? So long as my overall wealth is increasing That's my point. It isn't, it just appears that way because you haven't looked past the shin y surface. > This is just plain wrong in terms of a way to think about the economy or my life. Subjective. There are a lot of ordinary people who would say your way of thinking is wrong. Some actually want a stake in society, not an extra handful of rice per generation while a few at the top get an extra plantation.
  - problems 9y ago
    Sure, look at the feudal system, look at most communism implementations, look at China before their recent uptake of capitalist concepts. Progress almost entirely stops in these places under these systems. Clearly, at some level there is a system effect.
    - ionised 9y ago
      Firstly, I'm not a communist. It's a beautiful idea that can never work in practice because it depends on humans being a purely virtuous ideal of themselves, which they never will be. You'll always end up with some arsehole at the top trying to create a dynasty for himself. Personally I'd prefer a more utopian vision of human society like the one in Star Trek. No money, just personal, spritual and intellectual pursuit. It won't happen though, people are too self-serving. Anyway, progress did not grind to a halt under feudalism. There were lots of inventions and discoveries being made during the middle ages, the rate was just slower than today and while part of that was due to the inferior social system with limited personal freedoms it was also due to the far smaller human populations and resulting productive power, as well as the prevalence of religion and it's aggressively anti-science stance (the dark ages were one example of progress slowing down to nearly a halt). I mean look, http://www.lordsandladies.org/inventions-in-the-middle-ages.htm http://www.lordsandladies.org/inventions-in-the-middle-ages.... First result on Google. Arguable some of the most important inventions in history, because they enabled all the discoveries that came after.
dang 9y ago
Ideological flamewars are definitely not wanted here, and incivility (which you both cross into) doubly not wanted here. Would you please not do these things on Hacker News again? We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14820286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14820286 and marked it off-topic.

problems 9y ago

> That's a natural result of human intellectual progress and knowledge being passed down through generations. We have direct evidence that that is incorrect and any high school student knows it. Many, many times have we failed to progress due to being in systems that don't allow for it. > Is it growing or shrinking? Why would that matter to me as an individual? So long as my overall wealth is increasing, I don't care. I don't need to be making more than my neighbor to be happy with my life. As long as I still get the goods, I'm quite happy with this deal. This is just plain wrong in terms of a way to think about the economy or my life.

ionised 9y ago
> We have direct evidence that that is incorrect Post it. > Why would that matter to me as an individual? So long as my overall wealth is increasing That's my point. It isn't, it just appears that way because you haven't looked past the shin y surface. > This is just plain wrong in terms of a way to think about the economy or my life. Subjective. There are a lot of ordinary people who would say your way of thinking is wrong. Some actually want a stake in society, not an extra handful of rice per generation while a few at the top get an extra plantation.
- problems 9y ago
  Sure, look at the feudal system, look at most communism implementations, look at China before their recent uptake of capitalist concepts. Progress almost entirely stops in these places under these systems. Clearly, at some level there is a system effect.
  - ionised 9y ago
    Firstly, I'm not a communist. It's a beautiful idea that can never work in practice because it depends on humans being a purely virtuous ideal of themselves, which they never will be. You'll always end up with some arsehole at the top trying to create a dynasty for himself. Personally I'd prefer a more utopian vision of human society like the one in Star Trek. No money, just personal, spritual and intellectual pursuit. It won't happen though, people are too self-serving. Anyway, progress did not grind to a halt under feudalism. There were lots of inventions and discoveries being made during the middle ages, the rate was just slower than today and while part of that was due to the inferior social system with limited personal freedoms it was also due to the far smaller human populations and resulting productive power, as well as the prevalence of religion and it's aggressively anti-science stance (the dark ages were one example of progress slowing down to nearly a halt). I mean look, http://www.lordsandladies.org/inventions-in-the-middle-ages.htm http://www.lordsandladies.org/inventions-in-the-middle-ages.... First result on Google. Arguable some of the most important inventions in history, because they enabled all the discoveries that came after.

dang 9y ago

Ideological flamewars are definitely not wanted here, and incivility (which you both cross into) doubly not wanted here. Would you please not do these things on Hacker News again? We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14820286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14820286 and marked it off-topic.