6 ms·

Interesting world we live in, where slave labour is considered a smaller issue than a company's lost profits.

by ajnin 9y ago

GhostVII 9y ago
The prisoners all said they liked working much more than they liked being in prison, so so wouldn't really call it "slave labour" And even if they didn't like it, how is forcing them to do some work any worse than forcing them to be in prison? In both cases you are forcing them to do something they don't want to do.
- nkrisc 9y ago
  Create laws that criminalize trivial and victimless actions -> Sentence them to prison -> provide cheap labor as an alternative -> prisoners like cheap labor better than prison conditions -> achieve moral high ground? Nope.
  - GhostVII 9y ago
    Aside from the 'Create laws that criminalize trivial and victimless actions', I see nothing wrong with that, you are only making the prisoners happier during their time in prison. Prison is partially about punishment anyways, so really you are effectively reducing their sentence. Also I really doubt that the government is profiting off these prisoners, it costs a lot to keep someone in prison.
    - nkrisc 9y ago
      It's not the government that's profiting, it's the private prison companies that lobby the government to keep themselves in business and for a steady supply of prisoners from the enforcement of the aforementioned victimless crimes that land people in the prisons they own.
      - GhostVII 9y ago
        The prison in the article is run by the government
    - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
      There are lots of ways to make prisoners happier during their time in prison. Provide places that one can ensure one's own health and safety, including private cells. Make sure folks have enough underwear and toiletries. Provide actual medical and psychiatric care. Provide well-balanced meals. Heck, we could easily make sure masturbation isn't against the rules. We could extend that stuff by doing things like paying the prisoners minimum wage. The money could be used to pay child support, debts, help support a spouse, pay for nicer toiletries, and so on. Or just saved up so that the person can actually afford to get on their feet after prison.
- vkou 9y ago
  Slaves would have probably chosen to pick cotton, if the alternative was abuse and torture (Which they by and large did.) Those were, and are choices made under duress. Down this road lie GULAGs.
  - GhostVII 9y ago
    > Slaves would have probably chosen to pick cotton, if the alternative was abuse and torture (Which they by and large did.) So if, hypothetically, there were slaves given the option to pick cotton or be tortured, would you prefer to remove the option that they pick cotton, and force them to be tortured? Because if we are comparing prisoners to slaves and jail to torture, that is effectively what you are advocating for. Or would you like to abolish prisons in general, since being in prison is comparable to torture in your eyes.
    - ajnin 9y ago
      That's a false dichotomy. The real solution to this problem is, and was, as you strangely seem to have forgotten history, to abolish slavery altogether. Likewise in prisons the solution is to abolish slave labour and instead give the same work rights to prisoners as to the rest of the population, including minimum wage. For some perverse reason there is the general idea floating in people's minds that prisoners should be subjected to as much suffering as possible. Being deprived of their freedoms is not enough, they should also sleep in unhealthy conditions, be raped, and be forced to work for next to nothing. This is not the social contract, and this is not an efficient way to fight crime. In fact it probably contributes to create more crime.
      - GhostVII 9y ago
        > Likewise in prisons the solution is to abolish slave labour and instead give the same work rights to prisoners as to the rest of the population, including minimum wage. Why should we do that though? It costs a lot of money to keep people in prisons, the prisoners should help pay for that through their work. I think that they should get paid something, but since their food and housing is taken care of getting paid minimum wage seems excessive to me, and no one will hire a prisoner for minimum wage anyways. > For some perverse reason there is the general idea floating in people's minds that prisoners should be subjected to as much suffering as possible. Being deprived of their freedoms is not enough, they should also sleep in unhealthy conditions, be raped, and be forced to work for next to nothing. Do you actually know many people who think that? I've never heard anyone say that 'prisoners should be subjected to as much suffering as possible,' or anything along those lines.
- anth1988 9y ago
  It's absolutely slave labour. Slaves alternatives were absolutely brutal as well. I'd rather do the work than get whipped or hanged, but having those as my only choices is the real problem. These people are being punished, so limiting there options to work or be bored is reasonable. But that doesn't really excuse using them as slaves.

Interesting world we live in, where slave labour is considered a smaller issue than a company's lost profits.

by ajnin 9y ago

Interesting world we live in, where slave labour is considered a smaller issue than a company's lost profits.

The prisoners all said they liked working much more than they liked being in prison, so so wouldn't really call it "slave labour" And even if they didn't like it, how is forcing them to do some work any worse than forcing them to be in prison? In both cases you are forcing them to do something they don't want to do.

nkrisc 9y ago
Create laws that criminalize trivial and victimless actions -> Sentence them to prison -> provide cheap labor as an alternative -> prisoners like cheap labor better than prison conditions -> achieve moral high ground? Nope.
- GhostVII 9y ago
  Aside from the 'Create laws that criminalize trivial and victimless actions', I see nothing wrong with that, you are only making the prisoners happier during their time in prison. Prison is partially about punishment anyways, so really you are effectively reducing their sentence. Also I really doubt that the government is profiting off these prisoners, it costs a lot to keep someone in prison.
  - nkrisc 9y ago
    It's not the government that's profiting, it's the private prison companies that lobby the government to keep themselves in business and for a steady supply of prisoners from the enforcement of the aforementioned victimless crimes that land people in the prisons they own.
    - GhostVII 9y ago
      The prison in the article is run by the government
  - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
    There are lots of ways to make prisoners happier during their time in prison. Provide places that one can ensure one's own health and safety, including private cells. Make sure folks have enough underwear and toiletries. Provide actual medical and psychiatric care. Provide well-balanced meals. Heck, we could easily make sure masturbation isn't against the rules. We could extend that stuff by doing things like paying the prisoners minimum wage. The money could be used to pay child support, debts, help support a spouse, pay for nicer toiletries, and so on. Or just saved up so that the person can actually afford to get on their feet after prison.
vkou 9y ago
Slaves would have probably chosen to pick cotton, if the alternative was abuse and torture (Which they by and large did.) Those were, and are choices made under duress. Down this road lie GULAGs.
- GhostVII 9y ago
  > Slaves would have probably chosen to pick cotton, if the alternative was abuse and torture (Which they by and large did.) So if, hypothetically, there were slaves given the option to pick cotton or be tortured, would you prefer to remove the option that they pick cotton, and force them to be tortured? Because if we are comparing prisoners to slaves and jail to torture, that is effectively what you are advocating for. Or would you like to abolish prisons in general, since being in prison is comparable to torture in your eyes.
  - ajnin 9y ago
    That's a false dichotomy. The real solution to this problem is, and was, as you strangely seem to have forgotten history, to abolish slavery altogether. Likewise in prisons the solution is to abolish slave labour and instead give the same work rights to prisoners as to the rest of the population, including minimum wage. For some perverse reason there is the general idea floating in people's minds that prisoners should be subjected to as much suffering as possible. Being deprived of their freedoms is not enough, they should also sleep in unhealthy conditions, be raped, and be forced to work for next to nothing. This is not the social contract, and this is not an efficient way to fight crime. In fact it probably contributes to create more crime.
    - GhostVII 9y ago
      > Likewise in prisons the solution is to abolish slave labour and instead give the same work rights to prisoners as to the rest of the population, including minimum wage. Why should we do that though? It costs a lot of money to keep people in prisons, the prisoners should help pay for that through their work. I think that they should get paid something, but since their food and housing is taken care of getting paid minimum wage seems excessive to me, and no one will hire a prisoner for minimum wage anyways. > For some perverse reason there is the general idea floating in people's minds that prisoners should be subjected to as much suffering as possible. Being deprived of their freedoms is not enough, they should also sleep in unhealthy conditions, be raped, and be forced to work for next to nothing. Do you actually know many people who think that? I've never heard anyone say that 'prisoners should be subjected to as much suffering as possible,' or anything along those lines.
anth1988 9y ago
It's absolutely slave labour. Slaves alternatives were absolutely brutal as well. I'd rather do the work than get whipped or hanged, but having those as my only choices is the real problem. These people are being punished, so limiting there options to work or be bored is reasonable. But that doesn't really excuse using them as slaves.