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For a company that is wholly reliant on Linux to sell quite a few of their products, the lack of support from Nvidia continues to be impressive. Intel is activ

by posguy 9y ago

For a company that is wholly reliant on Linux to sell quite a few of their products, the lack of support from Nvidia continues to be impressive. Intel is actively trying to kill off lowend and mid-range GPUs in the desktop, and has locked them out in the mobile space, leaving Nvidia with just the high end GPU market and their ventures into the ARM SOC space. By not treating Linux end user devices as first class citizens, I don't see how Nvidia intends to have a viable business long term. Who wants a tablet, phone or desktop GPU without drivers?

binarycrusader 9y ago
The reality is all the money they make off Linux is with workstations cards or HPC. Neither of those market niches are likely demanding Wayland support since stability is a hard requirement and Wayland really isn't sufficiently mature yet (nor does it really have sufficient market adoption). They're a business, so when their customers need it, they'll support it. Until then, only hobbyists or an insufficient part of their customer base is interested, so understandably, they're not investing in it.
- andars 9y ago
  Those markets are also not demanding support because many of them have no display at all. This is definitely true for HPC GPUs and will be true for deep learning servers.
  - binarycrusader 9y ago
    Yes, I thought that was obvious, so didn't mention it.
- joelthelion 9y ago
  Wayland is probably going to be the default in all the next stable releases (RHEL, debian (is it already the case?), Ubuntu). Not supporting it sounds risky.
  - posguy 9y ago
    It is an extremely risky strategy, what will Tesla and all the other Automakers that use Nvidia SOCs and standard Linux distros and DEs do? I highly doubt they'll want to stay on something that isn't seeing much in the way of support, so time for a new SOC vendor...
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Risky, but for whom? If my GPU stops working with the Linux distro I use, I'm definitely more likely to change my distro. GPUs are expensive and there isn't much choice between vendors. Linux distributions are free and there's plenty of choice between vendors AND between versions.
    - omtose 9y ago
      Maybe in the short term you'll change distro or stick to X11, but when you decide to change GPU you'll likely try to get one with more compatibility.
      - jrimbault 9y ago
        Or the one with CUDA.
    - Gonzih 9y ago
      You can also just sell gpu and get one that works with your setup. Not ideal solution, but it depends on your priorities.
      - TeMPOraL 9y ago
        Selling a GPU takes time and loses you money - and that's in PC case, because on a laptop you don't even have that option. Moreover, if you have an NVIDIA GPU, you most likely need a decent GPU for something - high-end video games, 3D modelling work, GPU-accelerated computations, etc. Linux distros are, frankly, not much different for one another - they're pretty interchangeable for almost all tasks I can think of as a user/developer. GPUs, on the other hand, are a bit less interchangeable between vendors. You really have only two players to choose from (Intel GPUs don't count for anything serious) - so if both suddenly become incompatibile with a given Linux distro, then it's obviously bye bye to that Linux distro.
- posguy 9y ago
  Your forgetting the embedded device market that the Tegra K1 and newer are used in. Is Nvidia going to orphan this whole market segment they've built? I know they replaced a ton of WinXP boxes in labs across the world, and it seems as though they have captured most of the automakers on that same platform, from Toyota to BMW all running Xorg in their cars. Will Toyota go for running legacy, unmaintained Xorg in their cars? How about BMW? I don't see Nvidia ready to dump this market they've spent a decade building, so short of them being complete idiots, they will probably walk back on this. That being said, these were the people that tried to pass off a painted block of wood as a GPU on multiple occasions: https://semiaccurate.com/2011/03/11/nvidias-ceo-has-another-woodscrew-moment/ https://semiaccurate.com/2011/03/11/nvidias-ceo-has-another-...
  - aseipp 9y ago
    They're talking about not supporting XWayland, not Wayland proper. Given this -- if Toyota doesn't want to run "legacy, unmaintained" X11 in their cars, then.... they don't have to, they can just move to Wayland, which will work, and NVidia supports Wayland just fine -- and they don't have to worry about X11 at all anymore? So, everything would be fine? I'm not sure what point you're making here...
foobarian 9y ago
It's because their real market are GPU servers which don't run any UI whatsoever.
cthalupa 9y ago
A company that is wholly reliant on Linux to sell quite a few of their products? Gaming enthusiasts aren't running Linux. The HPC/GPU compute market don't care about Wayland. Android devices aren't using Wayland. What part of their target market runs Linux? What portion of the desktop market runs Linux? If it wasn't for Linux, I'd be in a very different profession, so I'm a huge fan. But I don't understand where you guys that act like the Linux desktop is a big enough market that this will make a material affect on nvidia's bottom line is so weird to me.
- shmerl 9y ago
  > Gaming enthusiasts aren't running Linux. More and more do today.
  - ekianjo 9y ago
    In total number yes, but in percentage of the total market, there's hardly any change, Windows and Mac gamers are also growing segments too. And the GP comment was right anyway, 90% of the Market is for sure not running Linux for gaming on PC. 1~2% is nice but it's hardly enough to convince large publishers to support Linux.
    - shmerl 9y ago
      That's about hardware makers, not about publishers.
      - ekianjo 9y ago
        Hardware makers also care about what gamers use to game. 90%+ gamers on PC use Windows. That's it.
        shmerl 9y ago
        Hardware makers unlike publishers compete more directly. So everything counts.
coldtea 9y ago
>By not treating Linux end user devices as first class citizens, I don't see how Nvidia intends to have a viable business long term. Who wants a tablet, phone or desktop GPU without drivers? The more relevant question is "who wants a desktop Linux system". And the answer is very few. That's why they doesn't care about that market. The huge majority of desktop users will go either Windows or OS X.
- Longhanks 9y ago
  And as earlier stated, most low-end to midrange GPUs are going to be Intel only, Apple has completely abandoned NVIDIA. On high end, there's still AMD to compete with. Their ARM chips seem to have failed, nearly every chip is Samsung, Qualcomm or Apple. Is NVIDIA really in a position where they can just blatantly ignore communities like Linux?
- atemerev 9y ago
  That was the case when Mac Pro would still be a viable option for a workstation. Now it isn't, and Windows, despite improvements, isn't there yet. So many researchers and HPC users, including myself, are stuck with Linux desktops. I am not happy about that, as my Mac Pro used to be much better. But there's nothing I can do about it now. (And, of course, Nvidia is the only choice for now if you want GPGPU computing).
  - horusthecat 9y ago
    Apple has released some rumblings that it's going to bring back a modular Mac Pro and keep it on x86 even if it goes to ARM for the Macbook, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
- pyroinferno 9y ago
  >The huge majority of desktop users will go OS X. HAHA, no.
Zahlmeister 9y ago
>> By not treating Linux end user devices as first class citizens, I don't see how Nvidia intends to have a viable business long term. Who wants a tablet, phone or desktop GPU without drivers? Desktop Linux with Wayland has maybe 0.1% market share rising to maybe 1% over the next years in the best case. In the worst case, Wayland will just be another Linux Desktop fail. Other devices (Phone/Tablets) do not use Wayland. The amount of resources any given company can allocate to Linux platform bullshit is limited. The "serious" NVIDIA Linux customers will probably stick with X anyway, in the foreseeable future.
- aerique 9y ago
  Sailfish OS (iOS & Android alternative) uses Wayland.
  - Zahlmeister 9y ago
    To a very good degree of approximation, nobody uses Sailfish OS. I'm not ruling out that there exist other pointless mobile operating systems with 0.0% market share that use Wayland or even XWayland in some capacity. My point however is that the "market" argument is nonsense when the market is practically non-existent.
phkahler 9y ago
Hold on. They didn't say they won't support Wayland - they will. They said they won't support Xwayland which is needed to run X programs under Wayland. I don't think that's entirely unreasonable. The community has said Wayland is the future, and they are finally on board with that. But now the community is dragging their feet in actually getting there. We still don't have upstream Firefox running natively on Wayland. Gimp, Inkscape, others, they have it on the radar but have been putting it off for years now. The only thing nVidia is doing here is not allowing the free software world to lag behind in their own goals ;-)
- corndoge 9y ago
  That sounds like some bullshit to me, the amount of effort for Nvidia to ease pains over the transition period -- which will surely last at least ten years before even 80% of applications are patched for native Wayland support and will and involve dumb shit akin to the systemd debacle like "We hate Wayland so we're forking Debian and calling it DebianFuckWayland" -- is marginal compared to the benefits. Xwayland will be here and necessary for a very long time. Don't turn a company's laziness into a virtue.
  - cptskippy 9y ago
    What % of nVidia's sales go to Linux systems running Wayland on in a scenario where X is desirable or even necessary? Far and away the vast majority of their GPUs in Linux systems are either in supercomputers or embedded applications like cars.
  - phkahler 9y ago
    >> Don't turn a company's laziness into a virtue. Didn't mean to do that. The whole thing has been a point of contention for a long time, so I wanted to clarify that they are actually getting on board with Wayland. They are by no means fully backing with Xwayland. I want a full Wayland experience and nVidia is doing the bare minimum to enable it on their hardware. For me getting all the way there really does involve desktop applications embracing it and adding support too. X is deprecated, and so should be Xwayland.

by posguy 9y ago

binarycrusader 9y ago

The reality is all the money they make off Linux is with workstations cards or HPC. Neither of those market niches are likely demanding Wayland support since stability is a hard requirement and Wayland really isn't sufficiently mature yet (nor does it really have sufficient market adoption). They're a business, so when their customers need it, they'll support it. Until then, only hobbyists or an insufficient part of their customer base is interested, so understandably, they're not investing in it.

andars 9y ago
Those markets are also not demanding support because many of them have no display at all. This is definitely true for HPC GPUs and will be true for deep learning servers.
- binarycrusader 9y ago
  Yes, I thought that was obvious, so didn't mention it.
joelthelion 9y ago
Wayland is probably going to be the default in all the next stable releases (RHEL, debian (is it already the case?), Ubuntu). Not supporting it sounds risky.
- posguy 9y ago
  It is an extremely risky strategy, what will Tesla and all the other Automakers that use Nvidia SOCs and standard Linux distros and DEs do? I highly doubt they'll want to stay on something that isn't seeing much in the way of support, so time for a new SOC vendor...
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Risky, but for whom? If my GPU stops working with the Linux distro I use, I'm definitely more likely to change my distro. GPUs are expensive and there isn't much choice between vendors. Linux distributions are free and there's plenty of choice between vendors AND between versions.
  - omtose 9y ago
    Maybe in the short term you'll change distro or stick to X11, but when you decide to change GPU you'll likely try to get one with more compatibility.
    - jrimbault 9y ago
      Or the one with CUDA.
  - Gonzih 9y ago
    You can also just sell gpu and get one that works with your setup. Not ideal solution, but it depends on your priorities.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      Selling a GPU takes time and loses you money - and that's in PC case, because on a laptop you don't even have that option. Moreover, if you have an NVIDIA GPU, you most likely need a decent GPU for something - high-end video games, 3D modelling work, GPU-accelerated computations, etc. Linux distros are, frankly, not much different for one another - they're pretty interchangeable for almost all tasks I can think of as a user/developer. GPUs, on the other hand, are a bit less interchangeable between vendors. You really have only two players to choose from (Intel GPUs don't count for anything serious) - so if both suddenly become incompatibile with a given Linux distro, then it's obviously bye bye to that Linux distro.
posguy 9y ago
Your forgetting the embedded device market that the Tegra K1 and newer are used in. Is Nvidia going to orphan this whole market segment they've built? I know they replaced a ton of WinXP boxes in labs across the world, and it seems as though they have captured most of the automakers on that same platform, from Toyota to BMW all running Xorg in their cars. Will Toyota go for running legacy, unmaintained Xorg in their cars? How about BMW? I don't see Nvidia ready to dump this market they've spent a decade building, so short of them being complete idiots, they will probably walk back on this. That being said, these were the people that tried to pass off a painted block of wood as a GPU on multiple occasions: https://semiaccurate.com/2011/03/11/nvidias-ceo-has-another-woodscrew-moment/ https://semiaccurate.com/2011/03/11/nvidias-ceo-has-another-...
- aseipp 9y ago
  They're talking about not supporting XWayland, not Wayland proper. Given this -- if Toyota doesn't want to run "legacy, unmaintained" X11 in their cars, then.... they don't have to, they can just move to Wayland, which will work, and NVidia supports Wayland just fine -- and they don't have to worry about X11 at all anymore? So, everything would be fine? I'm not sure what point you're making here...

foobarian 9y ago

It's because their real market are GPU servers which don't run any UI whatsoever.

cthalupa 9y ago

A company that is wholly reliant on Linux to sell quite a few of their products? Gaming enthusiasts aren't running Linux. The HPC/GPU compute market don't care about Wayland. Android devices aren't using Wayland. What part of their target market runs Linux? What portion of the desktop market runs Linux? If it wasn't for Linux, I'd be in a very different profession, so I'm a huge fan. But I don't understand where you guys that act like the Linux desktop is a big enough market that this will make a material affect on nvidia's bottom line is so weird to me.

shmerl 9y ago
> Gaming enthusiasts aren't running Linux. More and more do today.
- ekianjo 9y ago
  In total number yes, but in percentage of the total market, there's hardly any change, Windows and Mac gamers are also growing segments too. And the GP comment was right anyway, 90% of the Market is for sure not running Linux for gaming on PC. 1~2% is nice but it's hardly enough to convince large publishers to support Linux.
  - shmerl 9y ago
    That's about hardware makers, not about publishers.
    - ekianjo 9y ago
      Hardware makers also care about what gamers use to game. 90%+ gamers on PC use Windows. That's it.
      - shmerl 9y ago
        Hardware makers unlike publishers compete more directly. So everything counts.

coldtea 9y ago

>By not treating Linux end user devices as first class citizens, I don't see how Nvidia intends to have a viable business long term. Who wants a tablet, phone or desktop GPU without drivers? The more relevant question is "who wants a desktop Linux system". And the answer is very few. That's why they doesn't care about that market. The huge majority of desktop users will go either Windows or OS X.

Longhanks 9y ago
And as earlier stated, most low-end to midrange GPUs are going to be Intel only, Apple has completely abandoned NVIDIA. On high end, there's still AMD to compete with. Their ARM chips seem to have failed, nearly every chip is Samsung, Qualcomm or Apple. Is NVIDIA really in a position where they can just blatantly ignore communities like Linux?
atemerev 9y ago
That was the case when Mac Pro would still be a viable option for a workstation. Now it isn't, and Windows, despite improvements, isn't there yet. So many researchers and HPC users, including myself, are stuck with Linux desktops. I am not happy about that, as my Mac Pro used to be much better. But there's nothing I can do about it now. (And, of course, Nvidia is the only choice for now if you want GPGPU computing).
- horusthecat 9y ago
  Apple has released some rumblings that it's going to bring back a modular Mac Pro and keep it on x86 even if it goes to ARM for the Macbook, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
pyroinferno 9y ago
>The huge majority of desktop users will go OS X. HAHA, no.

Zahlmeister 9y ago

>> By not treating Linux end user devices as first class citizens, I don't see how Nvidia intends to have a viable business long term. Who wants a tablet, phone or desktop GPU without drivers? Desktop Linux with Wayland has maybe 0.1% market share rising to maybe 1% over the next years in the best case. In the worst case, Wayland will just be another Linux Desktop fail. Other devices (Phone/Tablets) do not use Wayland. The amount of resources any given company can allocate to Linux platform bullshit is limited. The "serious" NVIDIA Linux customers will probably stick with X anyway, in the foreseeable future.

aerique 9y ago
Sailfish OS (iOS & Android alternative) uses Wayland.
- Zahlmeister 9y ago
  To a very good degree of approximation, nobody uses Sailfish OS. I'm not ruling out that there exist other pointless mobile operating systems with 0.0% market share that use Wayland or even XWayland in some capacity. My point however is that the "market" argument is nonsense when the market is practically non-existent.

phkahler 9y ago

Hold on. They didn't say they won't support Wayland - they will. They said they won't support Xwayland which is needed to run X programs under Wayland. I don't think that's entirely unreasonable. The community has said Wayland is the future, and they are finally on board with that. But now the community is dragging their feet in actually getting there. We still don't have upstream Firefox running natively on Wayland. Gimp, Inkscape, others, they have it on the radar but have been putting it off for years now. The only thing nVidia is doing here is not allowing the free software world to lag behind in their own goals ;-)

corndoge 9y ago
That sounds like some bullshit to me, the amount of effort for Nvidia to ease pains over the transition period -- which will surely last at least ten years before even 80% of applications are patched for native Wayland support and will and involve dumb shit akin to the systemd debacle like "We hate Wayland so we're forking Debian and calling it DebianFuckWayland" -- is marginal compared to the benefits. Xwayland will be here and necessary for a very long time. Don't turn a company's laziness into a virtue.
- cptskippy 9y ago
  What % of nVidia's sales go to Linux systems running Wayland on in a scenario where X is desirable or even necessary? Far and away the vast majority of their GPUs in Linux systems are either in supercomputers or embedded applications like cars.
- phkahler 9y ago
  >> Don't turn a company's laziness into a virtue. Didn't mean to do that. The whole thing has been a point of contention for a long time, so I wanted to clarify that they are actually getting on board with Wayland. They are by no means fully backing with Xwayland. I want a full Wayland experience and nVidia is doing the bare minimum to enable it on their hardware. For me getting all the way there really does involve desktop applications embracing it and adding support too. X is deprecated, and so should be Xwayland.