4 ms·

People were saying the same thing about non-C++ back in the day. "Web apps aren't written in scripting languages y'know?"

saurik 9y ago
I view this more as "web apps should not be written in C++ due to security issues that we have long come to understand" than "web apps should be written in C++ due to performance issues we are guessing at"... like, do you believe that in a few years people will decide "no, strongly typed and proof assisted languages were overkill for contracts: it was actually better to code them in a language that has weirdly fluid rules and type semantics for reasons they did not quite grok in 2017"?
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  This criticism doesn't apply to Ethereum. Solidity is compiled to a VM. You can write other languages that meet your criteria that still use Ethereum.
  - saurik 9y ago
    I know, and I am very excited for those languages to exist and be usable, and thereby have been tracking a couple such efforts; until then, this is about as useful as pointing out that website development is theoretically possible using a computer. The person did not state that it would always be the case that smart contracts are hard: only that right now, on Ethereum, they are hard, and the comment even used "gotten to the point where" (indicating this is a temporary state) and specifically blamed the "tools", which is all absolutely true and is born out not just in theory but in practice; it doesn't even disagree with your own statements that other different tools would be better. Why are you so defensive about this commentary?
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      I'm like a goalie. Defense is my game. Actually, I didn't mean to come across as defensive. I just like to nerd out about tech. Once you accept the inherent craziness of the proposal, and go "Ok, this is crazy. What now?" you end up concluding that the future is going to be very interesting. It'd be worth investing some amount (that you can afford to lose!) in ETH on the off-chance that it doesn't suffer a major disaster. There are quite a few interesting applications for this technology, and historically that's been a pretty solid bet.
      - Emilia34444 9y ago
        mÿ möthërs nëïġhböür ïs wörkïnġ pärt tïmë änd ävëräġïnġ $9000 ä mönth. ï'm ä sïnġlë müm änd jüst ġöt mÿ fïrst päÿċhëċk för $6546! ï stïll ċän't bëlïëvë ït. ï trïëd ït öüt ċäüsë ï ġöt rëällÿ dëspërätë änd nöw ï ċöüldn't bë häppïër. hërës whät ï dö, ＡＭＡZＩＮＧＪＯＢＳ ¦¦¦¦F¦O¦L¦L¦O¦W¦¦M¦E¦¦¦¦¦http://ow.ly/P0wk30aVXfN http://ow.ly/P0wk30aVXfN ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
- JasoonS 9y ago
  The main thing to keep in mind at this point in time is that these contracts have very little tolerance for inefficiency, since inefficiency in this case costs money. Even solidity is very inefficient. Sure it would be great to write contracts in Haskell or Coq but can you insure O(1) or at most O(n) run time with little to no constant overhead? For example LLL (Low-Level Lisp-Like Language) produces 70% more efficient code than solidity [1] and thus it is the chosen language for the ENS (Ethereum Name Service) registry smart contract (who wouldn't want to pay 70 less for interacting with a contract?). But no doubt, better languages will come with time :) [1] https://media.consensys.net/an-introduction-to-lll-for-ethereum-smart-contract-development-e26e38ea6c23 https://media.consensys.net/an-introduction-to-lll-for-ether...
flunhat 9y ago
Difference being that a poorly written web app amounts to some leaked passwords and email addresses. A poorly written smart contract that handles real money, on the other hand...
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  So? It's their money to lose. Yes, it's crazy, but it's also happening.
  - flunhat 9y ago
    Agreed, and the massive hacks and losses will continue as long as smart contracts are written in Solidity.
    - guscost 9y ago
      The EVM is Turing-complete, so this will be a risk with any language that compiles into a smart contract. Solidity doesn't appeal to me because its goal seems to be on-boarding JavaScript programmers. But new languages that compile to EVM can be easier to use "safely" and you will see several of these in the next few years. I'm really excited that a project to embed Turing-complete behavior in a blockchain has actually taken off. It's completely insane from one perspective, but completely awesome from another.
      - adrianratnapala 9y ago
        The EVM might be Turing complete but you can still have languages that compile down to only some tractable sub-set of the possible EVM programs. The interesting question is whether a language can be design which allows the important domain-relevant requirements to written down in an understandable way and also proved rigorously. So far neither lawyers nor programmers have done a very good job of this in their respective field. Watching people trying to do it in both fields simultaneously sounds like popcorn time to me.
        9y ago

saurik 9y ago

I view this more as "web apps should not be written in C++ due to security issues that we have long come to understand" than "web apps should be written in C++ due to performance issues we are guessing at"... like, do you believe that in a few years people will decide "no, strongly typed and proof assisted languages were overkill for contracts: it was actually better to code them in a language that has weirdly fluid rules and type semantics for reasons they did not quite grok in 2017"?

sillysaurus3 9y ago
This criticism doesn't apply to Ethereum. Solidity is compiled to a VM. You can write other languages that meet your criteria that still use Ethereum.
- saurik 9y ago
  I know, and I am very excited for those languages to exist and be usable, and thereby have been tracking a couple such efforts; until then, this is about as useful as pointing out that website development is theoretically possible using a computer. The person did not state that it would always be the case that smart contracts are hard: only that right now, on Ethereum, they are hard, and the comment even used "gotten to the point where" (indicating this is a temporary state) and specifically blamed the "tools", which is all absolutely true and is born out not just in theory but in practice; it doesn't even disagree with your own statements that other different tools would be better. Why are you so defensive about this commentary?
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    I'm like a goalie. Defense is my game. Actually, I didn't mean to come across as defensive. I just like to nerd out about tech. Once you accept the inherent craziness of the proposal, and go "Ok, this is crazy. What now?" you end up concluding that the future is going to be very interesting. It'd be worth investing some amount (that you can afford to lose!) in ETH on the off-chance that it doesn't suffer a major disaster. There are quite a few interesting applications for this technology, and historically that's been a pretty solid bet.
    - Emilia34444 9y ago
      mÿ möthërs nëïġhböür ïs wörkïnġ pärt tïmë änd ävëräġïnġ $9000 ä mönth. ï'm ä sïnġlë müm änd jüst ġöt mÿ fïrst päÿċhëċk för $6546! ï stïll ċän't bëlïëvë ït. ï trïëd ït öüt ċäüsë ï ġöt rëällÿ dëspërätë änd nöw ï ċöüldn't bë häppïër. hërës whät ï dö, ＡＭＡZＩＮＧＪＯＢＳ ¦¦¦¦F¦O¦L¦L¦O¦W¦¦M¦E¦¦¦¦¦http://ow.ly/P0wk30aVXfN http://ow.ly/P0wk30aVXfN ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
JasoonS 9y ago
The main thing to keep in mind at this point in time is that these contracts have very little tolerance for inefficiency, since inefficiency in this case costs money. Even solidity is very inefficient. Sure it would be great to write contracts in Haskell or Coq but can you insure O(1) or at most O(n) run time with little to no constant overhead? For example LLL (Low-Level Lisp-Like Language) produces 70% more efficient code than solidity [1] and thus it is the chosen language for the ENS (Ethereum Name Service) registry smart contract (who wouldn't want to pay 70 less for interacting with a contract?). But no doubt, better languages will come with time :) [1] https://media.consensys.net/an-introduction-to-lll-for-ethereum-smart-contract-development-e26e38ea6c23 https://media.consensys.net/an-introduction-to-lll-for-ether...

flunhat 9y ago

Difference being that a poorly written web app amounts to some leaked passwords and email addresses. A poorly written smart contract that handles real money, on the other hand...

sillysaurus3 9y ago
So? It's their money to lose. Yes, it's crazy, but it's also happening.
- flunhat 9y ago
  Agreed, and the massive hacks and losses will continue as long as smart contracts are written in Solidity.
  - guscost 9y ago
    The EVM is Turing-complete, so this will be a risk with any language that compiles into a smart contract. Solidity doesn't appeal to me because its goal seems to be on-boarding JavaScript programmers. But new languages that compile to EVM can be easier to use "safely" and you will see several of these in the next few years. I'm really excited that a project to embed Turing-complete behavior in a blockchain has actually taken off. It's completely insane from one perspective, but completely awesome from another.
    - adrianratnapala 9y ago
      The EVM might be Turing complete but you can still have languages that compile down to only some tractable sub-set of the possible EVM programs. The interesting question is whether a language can be design which allows the important domain-relevant requirements to written down in an understandable way and also proved rigorously. So far neither lawyers nor programmers have done a very good job of this in their respective field. Watching people trying to do it in both fields simultaneously sounds like popcorn time to me.
      - 9y ago