7 ms·

Or, you know, just don't do illicit things.

by s73ver 9y ago

xj9 9y ago
sure, but what is actually wrong with drug use? moral outrage? the sign of a decaying society? untold secondary consequences? the problem is, people use drugs a lot. the war on drugs hasn't changed that in the least. we may have social issues, but as a "relatively upstanding and taxpaying citizen" who also happens to enjoy certain drugs on occasion, i ask. how exactly is my drug use impairing my ability to function in society? i get up and write software all day, why do you care if i get high when i get home?
- s73ver 9y ago
  "sure, but what is actually wrong with drug use?" I don't care; that's not what's being debated here. The fact of the matter is, it's illegal, and anyone who sets up a drug marketplace today knows that. They set it up with full knowledge that they are breaking the law. If they wish to campaign to have drug laws reworked, I'm all for that and wish them the best of luck. But they're not doing that; they're setting up a marketplace with the intentions of making lots of money. They're not fighting for freedom or anything like that; they're just trying to make a quick buck. And please don't respond with any kind of false equivalence bs. Getting high is not any kind of civil rights struggle. It's nice, but that's it. It is absolutely nothing like civil rights struggles of the past, and comparing it to such events is an extreme disrespect to those struggles and those who went through them.
  - xj9 9y ago
    i don't see the point in respecting a law that i don't agree with
    - bdcravens 9y ago
      For the most part, every single person who breaks any kind of a law doesn't agree with the law they're breaking.
    - s73ver 9y ago
      Then work to get it repealed. But I can't have any sympathy for you if you decide to start up a drug selling store, and then get busted for doing something you knew at the time was illegal.
      - xj9 9y ago
        i didn't ask for sympathy either. i know i'm breaking the law, i'm explaining why
        s73ver 9y ago
        Yet, this is an article about someone who did get busted for selling drugs. And people in this thread are acting like it was some kind of huge civil rights violation. It's not. He wasn't any kind of freedom fighter. He was trying to make a quick buck.
  - papaf 9y ago
    Getting high is not any kind of civil rights struggle. It's nice, but that's it. I think this is a logical and well reasoned attitude if you are living in an ivory tower and have never been close to an addict. People mostly become addicts in response to something bad happening in their lives. Punishing fellow human beings for an addiction is wrong. Addicts need treatment and support not punishment. This may not be a civil rights issue, more common sense and basic decency.
    - bdcravens 9y ago
      There's a difference between punishing an addict, and removing access to their provider. At this point, the conversation tends to fork into a discussion on least harm. Nevertheless, when marketplaces like AlphaBay and others are shut down, it's the operators, and sometimes the vendors, who are explicitly punished, not the addicts.
    - s73ver 9y ago
      It's still not. And I am entirely in favor of getting those people help instead of locking them away. But we're talking about those that set up the stores. They're clearly not helping any of those addicts. And they make a very conscious decision to do something that they know right now breaks the law.
    - nnfy 9y ago
      >People mostly become addicts in response to something bad happening in their lives This is absolutely untrue. It would seem that you are living in an ivory tower of your own. I won't recount anecdote, but take a look at this source[1]. 1. http://theinfluence.org/do-we-overstate-the-role-trauma-plays-in-addiction/ http://theinfluence.org/do-we-overstate-the-role-trauma-play...
  - Mz 9y ago
    The fact of the matter is, it's illegal So was interracial marriage for a long time. So was same sex marriage. Meanwhile, slavery and wife beating were perfectly legal at one time. Laws are written by people. "It is illegal" is not a moral argument. It simply is not. Asserting that it is illegal completely sidesteps the question asked concerning morality.
    - s73ver 9y ago
      No. This is the exact thing that I said not to respond with. And as I said, I'm not interested in debating the morality.
      - PixelB 9y ago
        I got news for you, buddy, no one cares what you want them to respond with. When you make garbage arguments you will get called out.
  - PixelB 9y ago
    Your arguments are so baseless and outright ignorant that when I attempt to think about a counter it just makes my brain hurt.. it doesn't matter what points are brought up, you will ignore them all. Have fun being right all the time in your head.
  - dalore 9y ago
    Slaving used to be legal, and helping them escape was illegal. Anyone who helps slaves escape set it up with the full knowledge they are breaking the law.
    - s73ver 9y ago
      This is not a valid rebuttal. Slavery and selling drugs are nowhere near the same thing, and by equating the two, you do a massive disrespect to those who fought for that. Slavery is a civil rights issue; selling drugs is not.
      - dalore 9y ago
        No you are conflating that since something is illegal ergo it's wrong. The point that you're missing is that laws can be wrong and can be changed. Just because something is currently illegal does not make it wrong.
  - ionised 9y ago
    Some laws are dumb, and civil diosobedience in the form of a mass breaking of those laws is often the best way. > Getting high is not any kind of civil rights struggle. You're right, it's not. At it's core it is a matter of pure, absolute personal choice and that is far more fucking important. If I want to consume a naturally occuring substance recreationally and I'm not harming anyone, then anyone who disapproves can try to stop me clack clack.
- Mz 9y ago
  I am actually sympathetic to your position, though I don't do illicit drugs (or any drugs). But, you would need to up your game if you really want to argue your case on HN. I can think of several good arguments, better than "Why do you care if I get high when I get home?", but this is probably the absolute worst place to have that discussion. You would also need to do a better job of picking your battles. I think neither of us did a good job with that in this case. Best.
  - nnfy 9y ago
    >But, you would need to up your game if you really want to argue your case on HN. I can think of several good arguments, better than "Why do you care if I get high when I get home?" There IS no better argument. Pardon my language, but I think a large proportion of the HN community especially agrees with the sentiment of STAY THE HELL OUT OF MY BUSINESS. If what I am doing has no or marginal negative effect on others, as a free human being with rights to self actualization, personal fulfillment, and self-determination, no one has any right tell me what I can and cannot do with myself. The drug war is fundamentally about the restriction of human rights and invasion of privacy.
    - ktta 9y ago
      >The drug war is fundamentally about the restriction of human rights and invasion of privacy. The drug war discussions will eventually end up with the argument about whether one has complete autonomy over their body, which isn't the case, because suicide is still illegal. Hell, even euthanasia is so far away from being legal in most of the US.
    - Mz 9y ago
      Humans are social creatures. If you wish to participate in society -- and you basically have no choice these days, because there seems to be no place on earth where you can completely get away from society -- you have to accept constraints on yourself. Laws that work well put a lot of thought into trying to balance the rights of the group with the rights of the individual. Erring too far in one direction or the other winds up being inherently problematic for all parties. You can't have a healthy group if none of the individuals are healthy, and you can't have a healthy individual if the group as a whole is a sick system. I can think of lots of better arguments than "stay the hell out of my business." But this thread does not look to me like fertile ground for trying to get into any of that.
PixelB 9y ago
From now on I'll be sure to only do things that you personally approve of.
dang 9y ago
You've continued to post unsubstantive comments and to use HN primarily for political and ideological battle. If you don't fix this, we're going to have to ban you again, so would you please fix this? We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14815722 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14815722 and marked it off-topic.
- s73ver 9y ago
  I don't see how this is not unsubstantive. The story is about someone arrested for running an illegal drug market. My suggestion was to just not do that.

Or, you know, just don't do illicit things.

by s73ver 9y ago

Or, you know, just don't do illicit things.

xj9 9y ago

sure, but what is actually wrong with drug use? moral outrage? the sign of a decaying society? untold secondary consequences? the problem is, people use drugs a lot. the war on drugs hasn't changed that in the least. we may have social issues, but as a "relatively upstanding and taxpaying citizen" who also happens to enjoy certain drugs on occasion, i ask. how exactly is my drug use impairing my ability to function in society? i get up and write software all day, why do you care if i get high when i get home?

s73ver 9y ago
"sure, but what is actually wrong with drug use?" I don't care; that's not what's being debated here. The fact of the matter is, it's illegal, and anyone who sets up a drug marketplace today knows that. They set it up with full knowledge that they are breaking the law. If they wish to campaign to have drug laws reworked, I'm all for that and wish them the best of luck. But they're not doing that; they're setting up a marketplace with the intentions of making lots of money. They're not fighting for freedom or anything like that; they're just trying to make a quick buck. And please don't respond with any kind of false equivalence bs. Getting high is not any kind of civil rights struggle. It's nice, but that's it. It is absolutely nothing like civil rights struggles of the past, and comparing it to such events is an extreme disrespect to those struggles and those who went through them.
- xj9 9y ago
  i don't see the point in respecting a law that i don't agree with
  - bdcravens 9y ago
    For the most part, every single person who breaks any kind of a law doesn't agree with the law they're breaking.
  - s73ver 9y ago
    Then work to get it repealed. But I can't have any sympathy for you if you decide to start up a drug selling store, and then get busted for doing something you knew at the time was illegal.
    - xj9 9y ago
      i didn't ask for sympathy either. i know i'm breaking the law, i'm explaining why
      - s73ver 9y ago
        Yet, this is an article about someone who did get busted for selling drugs. And people in this thread are acting like it was some kind of huge civil rights violation. It's not. He wasn't any kind of freedom fighter. He was trying to make a quick buck.
- papaf 9y ago
  Getting high is not any kind of civil rights struggle. It's nice, but that's it. I think this is a logical and well reasoned attitude if you are living in an ivory tower and have never been close to an addict. People mostly become addicts in response to something bad happening in their lives. Punishing fellow human beings for an addiction is wrong. Addicts need treatment and support not punishment. This may not be a civil rights issue, more common sense and basic decency.
  - bdcravens 9y ago
    There's a difference between punishing an addict, and removing access to their provider. At this point, the conversation tends to fork into a discussion on least harm. Nevertheless, when marketplaces like AlphaBay and others are shut down, it's the operators, and sometimes the vendors, who are explicitly punished, not the addicts.
  - s73ver 9y ago
    It's still not. And I am entirely in favor of getting those people help instead of locking them away. But we're talking about those that set up the stores. They're clearly not helping any of those addicts. And they make a very conscious decision to do something that they know right now breaks the law.
  - nnfy 9y ago
    >People mostly become addicts in response to something bad happening in their lives This is absolutely untrue. It would seem that you are living in an ivory tower of your own. I won't recount anecdote, but take a look at this source[1]. 1. http://theinfluence.org/do-we-overstate-the-role-trauma-plays-in-addiction/ http://theinfluence.org/do-we-overstate-the-role-trauma-play...
- Mz 9y ago
  The fact of the matter is, it's illegal So was interracial marriage for a long time. So was same sex marriage. Meanwhile, slavery and wife beating were perfectly legal at one time. Laws are written by people. "It is illegal" is not a moral argument. It simply is not. Asserting that it is illegal completely sidesteps the question asked concerning morality.
  - s73ver 9y ago
    No. This is the exact thing that I said not to respond with. And as I said, I'm not interested in debating the morality.
    - PixelB 9y ago
      I got news for you, buddy, no one cares what you want them to respond with. When you make garbage arguments you will get called out.
- PixelB 9y ago
  Your arguments are so baseless and outright ignorant that when I attempt to think about a counter it just makes my brain hurt.. it doesn't matter what points are brought up, you will ignore them all. Have fun being right all the time in your head.
- dalore 9y ago
  Slaving used to be legal, and helping them escape was illegal. Anyone who helps slaves escape set it up with the full knowledge they are breaking the law.
  - s73ver 9y ago
    This is not a valid rebuttal. Slavery and selling drugs are nowhere near the same thing, and by equating the two, you do a massive disrespect to those who fought for that. Slavery is a civil rights issue; selling drugs is not.
    - dalore 9y ago
      No you are conflating that since something is illegal ergo it's wrong. The point that you're missing is that laws can be wrong and can be changed. Just because something is currently illegal does not make it wrong.
- ionised 9y ago
  Some laws are dumb, and civil diosobedience in the form of a mass breaking of those laws is often the best way. > Getting high is not any kind of civil rights struggle. You're right, it's not. At it's core it is a matter of pure, absolute personal choice and that is far more fucking important. If I want to consume a naturally occuring substance recreationally and I'm not harming anyone, then anyone who disapproves can try to stop me clack clack.
Mz 9y ago
I am actually sympathetic to your position, though I don't do illicit drugs (or any drugs). But, you would need to up your game if you really want to argue your case on HN. I can think of several good arguments, better than "Why do you care if I get high when I get home?", but this is probably the absolute worst place to have that discussion. You would also need to do a better job of picking your battles. I think neither of us did a good job with that in this case. Best.
- nnfy 9y ago
  >But, you would need to up your game if you really want to argue your case on HN. I can think of several good arguments, better than "Why do you care if I get high when I get home?" There IS no better argument. Pardon my language, but I think a large proportion of the HN community especially agrees with the sentiment of STAY THE HELL OUT OF MY BUSINESS. If what I am doing has no or marginal negative effect on others, as a free human being with rights to self actualization, personal fulfillment, and self-determination, no one has any right tell me what I can and cannot do with myself. The drug war is fundamentally about the restriction of human rights and invasion of privacy.
  - ktta 9y ago
    >The drug war is fundamentally about the restriction of human rights and invasion of privacy. The drug war discussions will eventually end up with the argument about whether one has complete autonomy over their body, which isn't the case, because suicide is still illegal. Hell, even euthanasia is so far away from being legal in most of the US.
  - Mz 9y ago
    Humans are social creatures. If you wish to participate in society -- and you basically have no choice these days, because there seems to be no place on earth where you can completely get away from society -- you have to accept constraints on yourself. Laws that work well put a lot of thought into trying to balance the rights of the group with the rights of the individual. Erring too far in one direction or the other winds up being inherently problematic for all parties. You can't have a healthy group if none of the individuals are healthy, and you can't have a healthy individual if the group as a whole is a sick system. I can think of lots of better arguments than "stay the hell out of my business." But this thread does not look to me like fertile ground for trying to get into any of that.

PixelB 9y ago

From now on I'll be sure to only do things that you personally approve of.

dang 9y ago

You've continued to post unsubstantive comments and to use HN primarily for political and ideological battle. If you don't fix this, we're going to have to ban you again, so would you please fix this? We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14815722 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14815722 and marked it off-topic.

s73ver 9y ago
I don't see how this is not unsubstantive. The story is about someone arrested for running an illegal drug market. My suggestion was to just not do that.