4 ms·

Not outraged at the laws, outraged at being persecuted. If you know something is illegal, and it carries a fine of $1,000 and you do it, you get caught, and th

by mfoy_ 9y ago

Not outraged at the laws, outraged at being persecuted. If you know something is illegal, and it carries a fine of $1,000 and you do it, you get caught, and they fine you $1,000 you can't be like "What?! How DARE you catch me and fine me like the law says?! ARRRGH!"

mikeash 9y ago
Why not? If the law is unjust, it's perfectly reasonable to be outraged at being punished when you're caught even if you knew exactly what would happen beforehand. Since drugs have such a stigma in the countries HNers are likely to be from, imagine if we were talking about laws against, say, women driving cars, or criticizing the president.
- mfoy_ 9y ago
  Then you'd be using your arrest / punishment as a form of martyrdom to draw attention to the issue. Kind of like civil disobedience... but criminal. You'd get arrested (as expected), fined or imprisoned (as expected), then be outraged that the law exists. But you wouldn't be outraged that you _were_ arrested... you must have expected that.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    I'm confused by this concept of "Kind of like civil disobedience... but criminal." Isn't it exactly like civil disobedience, which is criminal? I still don't get why we can't be outraged just because we expected it. If the law says I have to sit at the back of the bus, and I get arrested for sitting at the front of the bus, I can't be outraged at being arrested?
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > I'm confused by this concept of "Kind of like civil disobedience... but criminal." Isn't it exactly like civil disobedience, which is criminal? “Can be” rather than “is”. Civil disobedience can apply to laws with civil or criminal penalties (the “civil” in “civil disobedience” does not refer to the civil/criminal distinction.)
  - kup0 9y ago
    You can both expect something and be outraged by it. Your post seems to assume the reason for the outrage is that the arrest goes against an expectation.
cowmoo728 9y ago
Part of the issue with this line of reasoning is selective enforcement. If the law is unjust and commonly broken, it is fair to be outraged if they choose to target you for punishment. Drug laws are broken every day, and in some cities LEOs are even working with the dealers. Unjust laws allow them to pick on people they don't like and people that threaten their business. Given these circumstances, I think it's still fair to be outraged at the enforcement of unjust laws.
- mfoy_ 9y ago
  Fair point. Sometimes I think the police state that America has become was in large part facilitated by this kind of thing. Almost everyone is in violation of something these days. If the police or the state don't like you then surprise surprise... you're getting arrested for that thing you've been doing for the past decade that half your neighbours do too...
  - eecc 9y ago
    That's exactly the definition of police state. I remember it being used to describe China, can't quite the source though. Sorry
deer 9y ago
Yea and attacking peoples fine as long as you threaten them first.

by mfoy_ 9y ago

mikeash 9y ago

Why not? If the law is unjust, it's perfectly reasonable to be outraged at being punished when you're caught even if you knew exactly what would happen beforehand. Since drugs have such a stigma in the countries HNers are likely to be from, imagine if we were talking about laws against, say, women driving cars, or criticizing the president.

mfoy_ 9y ago
Then you'd be using your arrest / punishment as a form of martyrdom to draw attention to the issue. Kind of like civil disobedience... but criminal. You'd get arrested (as expected), fined or imprisoned (as expected), then be outraged that the law exists. But you wouldn't be outraged that you _were_ arrested... you must have expected that.
- mikeash 9y ago
  I'm confused by this concept of "Kind of like civil disobedience... but criminal." Isn't it exactly like civil disobedience, which is criminal? I still don't get why we can't be outraged just because we expected it. If the law says I have to sit at the back of the bus, and I get arrested for sitting at the front of the bus, I can't be outraged at being arrested?
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > I'm confused by this concept of "Kind of like civil disobedience... but criminal." Isn't it exactly like civil disobedience, which is criminal? “Can be” rather than “is”. Civil disobedience can apply to laws with civil or criminal penalties (the “civil” in “civil disobedience” does not refer to the civil/criminal distinction.)
- kup0 9y ago
  You can both expect something and be outraged by it. Your post seems to assume the reason for the outrage is that the arrest goes against an expectation.

cowmoo728 9y ago

Part of the issue with this line of reasoning is selective enforcement. If the law is unjust and commonly broken, it is fair to be outraged if they choose to target you for punishment. Drug laws are broken every day, and in some cities LEOs are even working with the dealers. Unjust laws allow them to pick on people they don't like and people that threaten their business. Given these circumstances, I think it's still fair to be outraged at the enforcement of unjust laws.

mfoy_ 9y ago
Fair point. Sometimes I think the police state that America has become was in large part facilitated by this kind of thing. Almost everyone is in violation of something these days. If the police or the state don't like you then surprise surprise... you're getting arrested for that thing you've been doing for the past decade that half your neighbours do too...
- eecc 9y ago
  That's exactly the definition of police state. I remember it being used to describe China, can't quite the source though. Sorry

deer 9y ago

Yea and attacking peoples fine as long as you threaten them first.