4 ms·

It's the California No. Look it up. It's well-known and endemic in the Bay Area and Hollywood, in particular. My personal annoyance is how prevalent it is in d

It's the California No. Look it up. It's well-known and endemic in the Bay Area and Hollywood, in particular. My personal annoyance is how prevalent it is in dating now, given the number of people who respond violently to rejection (thereby training people to avoid dishing it out). I gave this serious thought and realized I'm 100% on California No style rejections ever since moving here, while in other places I've lived I'd get "sorry, I'm not interested," or something similar. California No creates ambiguity -- do I continue asking? Did this person get hit by a bus? If you think you're doing a favor by avoiding saying no, you're not. Say no. Every time.

miiiiiike 9y ago
Dating is very different, I wouldn't pass judgment. There's a real risk of physical harm at every stage. If you're unsure give 'em one more "I'd love to hear from you." before deleting their contact info and moving on.
- jsmthrowaway 9y ago
  In my experience, even one followup is risky after a California No, your specific wording doubly so (I've received "why don't you take the hint" to a single, very similar, followup the next day). I no longer follow up and tend to follow a policy of never asking for business or personal asks over text-based media, because a California No is harder to pull off in person. It evolves in person, though, to a "yeah, that would be fun, let's do it sometime" (and the examples in the article) to buy time until the California No can be successfully executed. I did mention the physical harm and am aware there are a growing number of folks who react violently and offensively to being rebuffed by internalizing it and taking it personally -- I know this because I've had to make conscious efforts to not tie rejection to my self-worth (I've been guilty in the past), and I've repeatedly seen rejections turn very, very ugly. So I am sympathetic that folks are often trained to -j DROP instead of -j REJECT. Also, the situations are strongly related. It's a general theme of being unable or unwilling to say no, whether in business or personal relationships. It transfers the ambiguity of the situation to the asker: are they saying no? Did they lose their phone? Did the e-mail go to spam? Did the investor's mom die? Am I being too persistent by following up? This must be balanced against feeling entitled to a response, though, because nobody owes you anything. It's a fine line. My personality type strongly prefers closure, and open issues like this nag me incessantly through no control of my own. I literally lose sleep over California No, trying to think of the explanation, whether business or personal. I cannot control that despite much effort. Was it something I said? Then I replay the entire conversation in my head. Then it's 4AM. The next generation is already learning that it's normal, and those of us who like (nay, need) "no" are now the diminishing minority.
  - hrehhf 9y ago
    I'm surprised to learn this is such a common thing that it has a name "California No", and it also reminds me that there is something wrong with the people of California :) In my experience, someone who can't say no is not being polite; they are being quite rude. Stringing people along is rude. It is far more polite to outright tell someone that you are not interested and then everyone can move along. Even for dating, I can't speak for other people, but a simple "not interested" is more polite than being ambiguous. There is no "growing number" of folks who react violently because violent reactions, in general, have decreased over time -- and if anything, a clear "no" is likely better than being unclear. In my experience someone would be more angry at being misled over a period of time.
    - lovemenot 9y ago
      You seem judgemental. While I share the same preference for clear, open discourse as others here, I recognise that in some cultures (e.g. Japan where I live) I will be in a distinct minority in this regard. It's only as polite or as rude as cultural norms dictate. I think a good approach is to recognise the different styles and, where appropriate, to help your counterparty to do so too.
- angersock 9y ago
  > There's a real risk of physical harm at every stage. This is vastly-overinflated risk, and honestly part of the mess we're in is due to people treating suitors as potential rapists or axe murderers. > If you're unsure give 'em one more "I'd love to hear from you." before deleting their contact info and moving on. This sort of brush-off means that a) you're going to be surprised when they show up again and b) they're definitely going to be more annoyed when they find out you ghosted them. If you don't treat others with respect, it makes things worse for everyone.
  - vinceguidry 9y ago
    > This is vastly-overinflated risk I don't think it is. I don't know a single attractive woman who hasn't been physically abused by at least one of their exes.
    - miiiiiike 9y ago
      The "attractive" qualifier gives the whole comment a bad smell. Physical abuse is physical abuse and it tells you more about the abuser than the abused.
      - vinceguidry 9y ago
        I haven't gotten to know the unattractive ones well enough for them to tell me their romantic history. But yeah, I bet a lot of them get abused too.
  - miiiiiike 9y ago
    > This is vastly-overinflated risk, and honestly part of the mess we're in is due to people treating suitors as potential rapists or axe murderers. Being careful who you socialize with is smart no matter what. > This sort of brush-off means that I wouldn't call it a brush off, it's an invitation to respond (or not) without further pressure or expectations. > a) you're going to be surprised when they show up again Yes! Delightfully surprised! > b) they're definitely going to be more annoyed when they find out you ghosted them. I've never had a bad experience with it. Most people who do decided to get back to you after an extended absence have a pretty good sense of humor about the situation. Ghosted is the last thing I'd feel if someone's last message to me was "I'd love to hear from you!"

miiiiiike 9y ago

Dating is very different, I wouldn't pass judgment. There's a real risk of physical harm at every stage. If you're unsure give 'em one more "I'd love to hear from you." before deleting their contact info and moving on.

jsmthrowaway 9y ago
In my experience, even one followup is risky after a California No, your specific wording doubly so (I've received "why don't you take the hint" to a single, very similar, followup the next day). I no longer follow up and tend to follow a policy of never asking for business or personal asks over text-based media, because a California No is harder to pull off in person. It evolves in person, though, to a "yeah, that would be fun, let's do it sometime" (and the examples in the article) to buy time until the California No can be successfully executed. I did mention the physical harm and am aware there are a growing number of folks who react violently and offensively to being rebuffed by internalizing it and taking it personally -- I know this because I've had to make conscious efforts to not tie rejection to my self-worth (I've been guilty in the past), and I've repeatedly seen rejections turn very, very ugly. So I am sympathetic that folks are often trained to -j DROP instead of -j REJECT. Also, the situations are strongly related. It's a general theme of being unable or unwilling to say no, whether in business or personal relationships. It transfers the ambiguity of the situation to the asker: are they saying no? Did they lose their phone? Did the e-mail go to spam? Did the investor's mom die? Am I being too persistent by following up? This must be balanced against feeling entitled to a response, though, because nobody owes you anything. It's a fine line. My personality type strongly prefers closure, and open issues like this nag me incessantly through no control of my own. I literally lose sleep over California No, trying to think of the explanation, whether business or personal. I cannot control that despite much effort. Was it something I said? Then I replay the entire conversation in my head. Then it's 4AM. The next generation is already learning that it's normal, and those of us who like (nay, need) "no" are now the diminishing minority.
- hrehhf 9y ago
  I'm surprised to learn this is such a common thing that it has a name "California No", and it also reminds me that there is something wrong with the people of California :) In my experience, someone who can't say no is not being polite; they are being quite rude. Stringing people along is rude. It is far more polite to outright tell someone that you are not interested and then everyone can move along. Even for dating, I can't speak for other people, but a simple "not interested" is more polite than being ambiguous. There is no "growing number" of folks who react violently because violent reactions, in general, have decreased over time -- and if anything, a clear "no" is likely better than being unclear. In my experience someone would be more angry at being misled over a period of time.
  - lovemenot 9y ago
    You seem judgemental. While I share the same preference for clear, open discourse as others here, I recognise that in some cultures (e.g. Japan where I live) I will be in a distinct minority in this regard. It's only as polite or as rude as cultural norms dictate. I think a good approach is to recognise the different styles and, where appropriate, to help your counterparty to do so too.
angersock 9y ago
> There's a real risk of physical harm at every stage. This is vastly-overinflated risk, and honestly part of the mess we're in is due to people treating suitors as potential rapists or axe murderers. > If you're unsure give 'em one more "I'd love to hear from you." before deleting their contact info and moving on. This sort of brush-off means that a) you're going to be surprised when they show up again and b) they're definitely going to be more annoyed when they find out you ghosted them. If you don't treat others with respect, it makes things worse for everyone.
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  > This is vastly-overinflated risk I don't think it is. I don't know a single attractive woman who hasn't been physically abused by at least one of their exes.
  - miiiiiike 9y ago
    The "attractive" qualifier gives the whole comment a bad smell. Physical abuse is physical abuse and it tells you more about the abuser than the abused.
    - vinceguidry 9y ago
      I haven't gotten to know the unattractive ones well enough for them to tell me their romantic history. But yeah, I bet a lot of them get abused too.
- miiiiiike 9y ago
  > This is vastly-overinflated risk, and honestly part of the mess we're in is due to people treating suitors as potential rapists or axe murderers. Being careful who you socialize with is smart no matter what. > This sort of brush-off means that I wouldn't call it a brush off, it's an invitation to respond (or not) without further pressure or expectations. > a) you're going to be surprised when they show up again Yes! Delightfully surprised! > b) they're definitely going to be more annoyed when they find out you ghosted them. I've never had a bad experience with it. Most people who do decided to get back to you after an extended absence have a pretty good sense of humor about the situation. Ghosted is the last thing I'd feel if someone's last message to me was "I'd love to hear from you!"