3 ms·

Not really. Which pyramids are you talking about? What we have are some lukewarm explanations which do not hold up to scientific scrutiny of all the historic so

by fluxby 9y ago

Not really. Which pyramids are you talking about? What we have are some lukewarm explanations which do not hold up to scientific scrutiny of all the historic sources. If you are talking about the Great Pyramyd of Cheops in Giza then plenty of evidence show that Cheops had nothing to do with building that pyramid. He was a Stone Age monarch at the time when writing and mathematics have not been developed in Egypt. The pyramid has no indication anywhere on it that it belonged to Cheops, one would think that if a guy spent over 20 years and killed over 20,000 slaves building it, then he'd put his name on it. :)

fluxby 9y ago
The idea that pyramid belonged to Cheops comes from Herodotus who travelled to Egypt long after Cheops, and in fact what he wrote down is an urban legend from the local folk, because no historic Egyptian documents could verify who built the great pyramid. There are other much earlier historic accounts about the great pyramid from Arab historians. Who have a very different story about the pyramid.
- mustacheemperor 9y ago
  >a very different story about the pyramid. Do you have any sources or articles? I'm a huge ancient Egypt nerd and would love to read more about it - as is unfortunately usually the case with nuanced historical topics, Wikipedia just breezes through the common assumptions (that it was built for Cheops).
  - fluxby 9y ago
    Few historical points that we know for certain: - Cheops lived in 26th century BC. This is Stone Age territory. A time where humans still didn't master metalworks, and understanding of mathematics and written language was very poor. - Herodotus traveled to Egypt and later made his claim in 5th century BC. This is about 2100 years after the rule of Cheops! To say that his historic account can be deemed as verifiable is a joke. - Up until 820 AD the pyramid was completely closed off by the granite plates that covered all external walls, and an Arab caliph Al-Mamoun broke most of them and found a way in. - The architectual complexity of the Great Pyramid is unbelievable. On top of everything that most people know, it also has an underground chambers with an artificial lake (water comes from underground sources) and a really big sarcophagus submerged in the water. The sarcophagus is larger than the walkways leading up to the underground chamber. - All the consequent pyramids that came after the great pyramid are much smaller and much less sophisticated. We know that Egyptian empire was growing substantially in wealth and power at that time, so why the pyramids are less sophisticated? Shouldn't we see technological progression, not regression in a rich developing society? What I think is that we have a serious case of Cargo Cult where emperors try to emulate the greatness of the pyramid. - The Arab historians I mentioned refer to the legend of Enoch.
    - sbmassey 9y ago
      According to http://archive.archaeology.org/9909/abstracts/pyramids.html http://archive.archaeology.org/9909/abstracts/pyramids.html carbon dating makes the old kingdom pyramids older than their historical dates, although they suggest they may have been using old wood.
      - rando444 9y ago
        This seems to just lump all of the pyramids at giza together. The smaller pyramids can be dated because there are the remains of worker villages around each of them.. nothing similar exists for the great pyramid.
    - pvg 9y ago
      Few historical points that we know for certain: None of these are 'known for certain' and they are at odds with archeological evidence and well-accepted egyptology. Cheops lived in 26th century BC. This is Stone Age territory. A time where humans still didn't master metalworks, and understanding of mathematics and written language was very poor. Egyptians at the time had copper tools, two different writing systems, papyrus. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ancient-egypt-shipping-mining-farming-economy-pyramids-180956619/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ancient-egypt-shipping... Herodotus traveled to Egypt and later made his claim in 5th century BC. Herodotus is by far not the only source of information we have about the Old Kingdom. Up until 820 AD the pyramid was completely closed off by the granite plates that covered all external walls, and an Arab caliph Al-Mamoun broke most of them and found a way in You can easily find references to egyptologists who believe most pyramids were robbed by the Middle Kingdom. On top of everything that most people know, it also has an underground chambers with an artificial lake The only reference I can find to that is on crackpot sites. Do you have anything better? Shouldn't we see technological progression, not regression in a rich developing society We see exactly such a progression in the first four or so pyramids. What I think is that we have a serious case of Cargo Cult where emperors try to emulate the greatness of the pyramid. Again, do you have any decent references to all this stuff? Because otherwise it's 'internet person vs all of Egyptology' which is not very convincing.
- pvg 9y ago
  The evidence is not limited to what Herodotus wrote. But that doesn't matter much, we know they are tombs, we know a great deal about the civilization that built them. We know far less about who built Stonehenge and why. They're not in the same category of knowing at all.
sbmassey 9y ago
Well, if he was a monarch before writing had been developed, he would have had a hard time putting his name on it.
- fluxby 9y ago
  He would have had even harder time designing the pyramid
  - deepsun 9y ago
    Well, children can design pyramids using sand.
    - fluxby 9y ago
      Yeah. Only those pyramids are about knee high and last for about a day. :) The great pyramid stood for at least 5000 years.
      - deepsun 9y ago
        You said "design", not build. My point is that designing pyramid is not really that hard. Building it is totally different thing (but still doable by thousands of uneducated slaves).

by fluxby 9y ago

fluxby 9y ago

The idea that pyramid belonged to Cheops comes from Herodotus who travelled to Egypt long after Cheops, and in fact what he wrote down is an urban legend from the local folk, because no historic Egyptian documents could verify who built the great pyramid. There are other much earlier historic accounts about the great pyramid from Arab historians. Who have a very different story about the pyramid.

mustacheemperor 9y ago
>a very different story about the pyramid. Do you have any sources or articles? I'm a huge ancient Egypt nerd and would love to read more about it - as is unfortunately usually the case with nuanced historical topics, Wikipedia just breezes through the common assumptions (that it was built for Cheops).
- fluxby 9y ago
  Few historical points that we know for certain: - Cheops lived in 26th century BC. This is Stone Age territory. A time where humans still didn't master metalworks, and understanding of mathematics and written language was very poor. - Herodotus traveled to Egypt and later made his claim in 5th century BC. This is about 2100 years after the rule of Cheops! To say that his historic account can be deemed as verifiable is a joke. - Up until 820 AD the pyramid was completely closed off by the granite plates that covered all external walls, and an Arab caliph Al-Mamoun broke most of them and found a way in. - The architectual complexity of the Great Pyramid is unbelievable. On top of everything that most people know, it also has an underground chambers with an artificial lake (water comes from underground sources) and a really big sarcophagus submerged in the water. The sarcophagus is larger than the walkways leading up to the underground chamber. - All the consequent pyramids that came after the great pyramid are much smaller and much less sophisticated. We know that Egyptian empire was growing substantially in wealth and power at that time, so why the pyramids are less sophisticated? Shouldn't we see technological progression, not regression in a rich developing society? What I think is that we have a serious case of Cargo Cult where emperors try to emulate the greatness of the pyramid. - The Arab historians I mentioned refer to the legend of Enoch.
  - sbmassey 9y ago
    According to http://archive.archaeology.org/9909/abstracts/pyramids.html http://archive.archaeology.org/9909/abstracts/pyramids.html carbon dating makes the old kingdom pyramids older than their historical dates, although they suggest they may have been using old wood.
    - rando444 9y ago
      This seems to just lump all of the pyramids at giza together. The smaller pyramids can be dated because there are the remains of worker villages around each of them.. nothing similar exists for the great pyramid.
  - pvg 9y ago
    Few historical points that we know for certain: None of these are 'known for certain' and they are at odds with archeological evidence and well-accepted egyptology. Cheops lived in 26th century BC. This is Stone Age territory. A time where humans still didn't master metalworks, and understanding of mathematics and written language was very poor. Egyptians at the time had copper tools, two different writing systems, papyrus. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ancient-egypt-shipping-mining-farming-economy-pyramids-180956619/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ancient-egypt-shipping... Herodotus traveled to Egypt and later made his claim in 5th century BC. Herodotus is by far not the only source of information we have about the Old Kingdom. Up until 820 AD the pyramid was completely closed off by the granite plates that covered all external walls, and an Arab caliph Al-Mamoun broke most of them and found a way in You can easily find references to egyptologists who believe most pyramids were robbed by the Middle Kingdom. On top of everything that most people know, it also has an underground chambers with an artificial lake The only reference I can find to that is on crackpot sites. Do you have anything better? Shouldn't we see technological progression, not regression in a rich developing society We see exactly such a progression in the first four or so pyramids. What I think is that we have a serious case of Cargo Cult where emperors try to emulate the greatness of the pyramid. Again, do you have any decent references to all this stuff? Because otherwise it's 'internet person vs all of Egyptology' which is not very convincing.
pvg 9y ago
The evidence is not limited to what Herodotus wrote. But that doesn't matter much, we know they are tombs, we know a great deal about the civilization that built them. We know far less about who built Stonehenge and why. They're not in the same category of knowing at all.

sbmassey 9y ago

Well, if he was a monarch before writing had been developed, he would have had a hard time putting his name on it.

fluxby 9y ago
He would have had even harder time designing the pyramid
- deepsun 9y ago
  Well, children can design pyramids using sand.
  - fluxby 9y ago
    Yeah. Only those pyramids are about knee high and last for about a day. :) The great pyramid stood for at least 5000 years.
    - deepsun 9y ago
      You said "design", not build. My point is that designing pyramid is not really that hard. Building it is totally different thing (but still doable by thousands of uneducated slaves).