4 ms·

>So if you're not a STEM major ... why even study algebra? I feel like this is equivalent to saying "if you are a STEM major, why even study writing?" I do som

>So if you're not a STEM major ... why even study algebra? I feel like this is equivalent to saying "if you are a STEM major, why even study writing?" I do some technical writing for work, but absolutely none of the kind of writing I did in my college writing classes. Would anyone, especially a non-STEM major, care to make an argument that the two cases are different?

sillysaurus3 9y ago
People are far more likely to benefit economically from strong communication skills than strong math skills. The vast majority of people go to community college to help themselves economically.
- mjfl 9y ago
  Because basic financial planning doesn't require math...
- kbenson 9y ago
  I'm not sure I buy that. At a minimum, I don't think it's obvious enough to stand without some references or reasoning. Understanding compound interest at a minimum probably provides an immense benefit to those it keeps from making bad assumptions about taking on and getting out of debt.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    Strong writing skills are more likely to get you a job. This is anecdotal, but in my experience those who are forced to take math classes rarely benefit from them in the financial sense you're referring to. A financial planning course, on the other hand, would be immensely valuable. People should be forced to take that, not algebra. Knowing how to save money on tax returns, how to calculate a budget, software to manage it all... If school is being used for job training, then I wish it would train that.
    - kermittd 9y ago
      I on the no required math courses train for non-stem. I completely agree! Of course since the argument can't be practical, ie you will use this someday which you won't, opponents talk about the importance of a liberal arts education and being well rounded.
    - throwawayjava 9y ago
      > People should be forced to take [A financial planning course] No one should be forced to take such a useless course. Learn algebra and all the non-ephemeral aspects of basic financial planning comes basically for free. > Knowing how to save money on tax returns Talk about ephemeral knowledge! > how to calculate a budget ...is literally the first example used in a lot of college algebra courses.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  > ...strong math skills We're not talking about "strong" math skills. IME most kids who will go on to take AP Calculus mastered at least half of the material covered in a CC Algebra course before even starting high school. > People are far more likely to benefit economically from strong communication skills than strong math skills I'm not entirely sure this is true in many local economies. Especially outside of cities, communication isn't as important as competency in skills/trades. And a lot of those skills/trades require a functional understanding of elementary mathematical objects -- understanding ratios, functions, some useful trig properties, and the ability to follow complicated directions (algorithms) precisely are all basic core competencies for most trades. The article is probably correct -- we could stand to have alternatives to the standard CC algebra course. But an effectively similar level of quantitative skill is required for most trades. And no amount of "pretty talkin'" will prep you for, e.g., CNC machining.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    And a lot of those skills/trades require a functional understanding of elementary mathematical objects -- understanding ratios, functions, some useful trig properties, and the ability to follow complicated directions (algorithms) precisely are all basic core competencies for most trades. Which trades are you referring to? Truck driving? Retail? Cashiers? Secretaries? Managers, sales reps, school teachers, janitors, waiters, cooks, customer service, freight laborers, stock clerks, maids, receptionists, construction laborers, child care workers, grounds maintenance? None of those require a wit of algebra. Yet they represent tens of millions of jobs. It's not good to divorce ourselves too far from the reality of most normal peoples' lives.
    - throwawayjava 9y ago
      > Truck driving? Retail? Cashiers? Secretaries? None of those are skills (except maybe truck driving). And none of them require a CC degree. Those are all things you do with a GED or less. I'm thinking of the sorts of things people go to CC for. Dental Hygiene, Paramedics, EMTs, Morgue work, Respiratory therapists et al, various medical diagnostic technicians, vet techs, nursing, CNC, Engineering technicians, etc. Visit your local CC website and look through their programs of study. > Managers Depends. Engineering? Construction? Absolutely. Again, we're not talk about groups and rings. We're talking about stuff like knowing the difference between x and x^2. > sales reps ... customer service Outside of cities there are a lot fewer sales jobs... and a lot of them require BA/BS just because they can. > school teachers STEM teachers need a LOT more than just CC algebra. At least Calculus. The algebra taught in CC's was once taught in high school, but is now often taught in middle school. Middle school science curricula have kept pace. So, yes, any STEM teacher -- even at the elementary level these days -- needs to know basic algebra. > janitors, waiters, cooks Not skills and/or don't require CC, and so irrelevant to this conversation. > freight laborers, stock clerks, maids, receptionists, construction laborers, child care workers, grounds maintenance? Again, not skills, and for the most part don't require CC.
kermittd 9y ago
Non-Stem; I'll give it go but the answer may be considered a cop out. I don't think STEM majors should have to take writing courses nor non-stem majors take math courses. This should not be done in University but earlier. I'm skeptical that forcing these two categories of students take these courses make them effective with in the subject matter or a more enlightened person as the excuse goes. IMO it is a way to keep professors who teach unneccessary coursework employed.
- jcadam 9y ago
  I disagree. STEM majors should have to take at least a couple of writing courses as part of a university degree (I had to take two: English Comp and Technical Writing). I'm freaking tired of trying to decipher some of the poorly written documentation produced by my fellow software engineers.
  - samtho 9y ago
    Assuming your fellow engineers are college educated, you've just invalidated your own point. The required writing has obviously not helped them.
    - Retric 9y ago
      They could be worse without the training. Remember most people have 12+ years of learning how to write, a few college classes are only going to do so much.
    - kermittd 9y ago
      There we go right here. In theory people say engineers need to write cleary,accurately, whatever adverb is used to describe it in order to get a job etc. I wonder how many engineers get hired for their writing ability? In fact I bet a college educated engineer or at least one who went to college writes well enough as to not interfere with their work.
- warcher 9y ago
  If you're a STEM person on my team that cannot write in a coherent and precise fashion, I am going to find you and you had better pray you're worth retraining, because this is a non-negotiable part of any technical career you could hope to have. If you want regular promotions, probably watch your spelling too.
danso 9y ago
Writing classes at the college level usually involve some study of literature, which is conceivably helpful in not just daily, transactional communication, but in consuming news and entertainment. I have an engineering degree but I'm having a hard time thinking when I've ever used math beyond simple arithmetic and statistics outside of work.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  FWIW that "simple arithmetic and statistics" is the sort of stuff that's taught in college algebra. We're not talking about teaching everyone Calculus or Group Theory. We're talking about making sure everyone knows what they should've learned in their middle and high school algebra course.
- tnecniv 9y ago
  They're typically also (if done well) about making arguments using sources and thinking logically -- both valuable skills. "Real" math is also about those things, but it's typically not presented that way until it's too late.
booleandilemma 9y ago
The sentence before that is: "It is also the single most failed course in community colleges across the country". The author is saying that a lot of people that don't need algebra end up failing it, so if we remove it from their curricula we'll raise graduation rates. That's the end goal. Not as many people fail writing courses, so there's no need to remove those courses as they're not a barrier to graduating.
- cmahler7 9y ago
  >The author is saying that a lot of people that don't need algebra end up failing it, so if we remove it from their curricula we'll raise graduation rates. That's the end goal This is what's wrong with our education system. Who cares if anyone is actually learning anything, get those useless metrics up!
  - bsder 9y ago
    > Who cares if anyone is actually learning anything, get those useless metrics up! Employers seem to disagree with you about the usefulness of that metric. When being able to get a job depends more on what piece of paper you have than what knowledge you have, that is no longer a useless metric.
    - flukus 9y ago
      If we're going down that path, why not just print out the relevant bits of paper for anyone that asks? For a small fee of course. We can end the race to the bottom and go straight to the finish line.
      - bsder 9y ago
        Take this up with the employers, not the students or the colleges. Students and colleges are responding rationally to what the employers are demanding.
        9y ago
trentmb 9y ago
Yeah, the whining about well-roundedness tends to be humanities towards STEM, perhaps in response to the STEMlord mentality. FWIW: I have a "Bachelors of Science In Liberal Arts & Sciences" from math.illinois.edu and enjoyed the human sexuality, critical theory, etc courses I took in addition to the math courses. I have a sneaking suspicion there'd be a revolt if all humanities students had to pass MATH 347[1] to graduate. [1] http://www.math.uiuc.edu/Bourbaki/Syllabi/syl347.html http://www.math.uiuc.edu/Bourbaki/Syllabi/syl347.html
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
tsuyoshi 9y ago
Well, I majored in both political science and computer science. I don't think the two cases are different at all. I find it very irritating to deal with both political people who don't understand any math, and computer people who can't write a coherent sentence. However, if I had to pick one mathematical subject everyone should learn, it wouldn't be algebra, it would be statistics.
- tnecniv 9y ago
  How do you teach statistics in any meaningful way other than with algebra?
  - nonbel 9y ago
    This is common: Plug into SPSS/etc -> p-value calculated -> result = ifelse(p<0.05, success/trueTheory, failure/falseTheory)
    - tnecniv 9y ago
      I said meaningful :P
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  > However, if I had to pick one mathematical subject everyone should learn, it wouldn't be algebra, it would be statistics. This isn't algebra in the "groups and rings" sense, it's algebra in the "use the quadratic equation", "is this a graph of x or x^2 or x^3?", "FOIL" sense. Think middle school or early high school. It's basically impossible to do any statistics past a bit of hand waving if your students can't identify the difference between a graph of x and a graph of x^2...

sillysaurus3 9y ago

People are far more likely to benefit economically from strong communication skills than strong math skills. The vast majority of people go to community college to help themselves economically.

mjfl 9y ago
Because basic financial planning doesn't require math...
kbenson 9y ago
I'm not sure I buy that. At a minimum, I don't think it's obvious enough to stand without some references or reasoning. Understanding compound interest at a minimum probably provides an immense benefit to those it keeps from making bad assumptions about taking on and getting out of debt.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  Strong writing skills are more likely to get you a job. This is anecdotal, but in my experience those who are forced to take math classes rarely benefit from them in the financial sense you're referring to. A financial planning course, on the other hand, would be immensely valuable. People should be forced to take that, not algebra. Knowing how to save money on tax returns, how to calculate a budget, software to manage it all... If school is being used for job training, then I wish it would train that.
  - kermittd 9y ago
    I on the no required math courses train for non-stem. I completely agree! Of course since the argument can't be practical, ie you will use this someday which you won't, opponents talk about the importance of a liberal arts education and being well rounded.
  - throwawayjava 9y ago
    > People should be forced to take [A financial planning course] No one should be forced to take such a useless course. Learn algebra and all the non-ephemeral aspects of basic financial planning comes basically for free. > Knowing how to save money on tax returns Talk about ephemeral knowledge! > how to calculate a budget ...is literally the first example used in a lot of college algebra courses.
throwawayjava 9y ago
> ...strong math skills We're not talking about "strong" math skills. IME most kids who will go on to take AP Calculus mastered at least half of the material covered in a CC Algebra course before even starting high school. > People are far more likely to benefit economically from strong communication skills than strong math skills I'm not entirely sure this is true in many local economies. Especially outside of cities, communication isn't as important as competency in skills/trades. And a lot of those skills/trades require a functional understanding of elementary mathematical objects -- understanding ratios, functions, some useful trig properties, and the ability to follow complicated directions (algorithms) precisely are all basic core competencies for most trades. The article is probably correct -- we could stand to have alternatives to the standard CC algebra course. But an effectively similar level of quantitative skill is required for most trades. And no amount of "pretty talkin'" will prep you for, e.g., CNC machining.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  And a lot of those skills/trades require a functional understanding of elementary mathematical objects -- understanding ratios, functions, some useful trig properties, and the ability to follow complicated directions (algorithms) precisely are all basic core competencies for most trades. Which trades are you referring to? Truck driving? Retail? Cashiers? Secretaries? Managers, sales reps, school teachers, janitors, waiters, cooks, customer service, freight laborers, stock clerks, maids, receptionists, construction laborers, child care workers, grounds maintenance? None of those require a wit of algebra. Yet they represent tens of millions of jobs. It's not good to divorce ourselves too far from the reality of most normal peoples' lives.
  - throwawayjava 9y ago
    > Truck driving? Retail? Cashiers? Secretaries? None of those are skills (except maybe truck driving). And none of them require a CC degree. Those are all things you do with a GED or less. I'm thinking of the sorts of things people go to CC for. Dental Hygiene, Paramedics, EMTs, Morgue work, Respiratory therapists et al, various medical diagnostic technicians, vet techs, nursing, CNC, Engineering technicians, etc. Visit your local CC website and look through their programs of study. > Managers Depends. Engineering? Construction? Absolutely. Again, we're not talk about groups and rings. We're talking about stuff like knowing the difference between x and x^2. > sales reps ... customer service Outside of cities there are a lot fewer sales jobs... and a lot of them require BA/BS just because they can. > school teachers STEM teachers need a LOT more than just CC algebra. At least Calculus. The algebra taught in CC's was once taught in high school, but is now often taught in middle school. Middle school science curricula have kept pace. So, yes, any STEM teacher -- even at the elementary level these days -- needs to know basic algebra. > janitors, waiters, cooks Not skills and/or don't require CC, and so irrelevant to this conversation. > freight laborers, stock clerks, maids, receptionists, construction laborers, child care workers, grounds maintenance? Again, not skills, and for the most part don't require CC.

kermittd 9y ago

Non-Stem; I'll give it go but the answer may be considered a cop out. I don't think STEM majors should have to take writing courses nor non-stem majors take math courses. This should not be done in University but earlier. I'm skeptical that forcing these two categories of students take these courses make them effective with in the subject matter or a more enlightened person as the excuse goes. IMO it is a way to keep professors who teach unneccessary coursework employed.

jcadam 9y ago
I disagree. STEM majors should have to take at least a couple of writing courses as part of a university degree (I had to take two: English Comp and Technical Writing). I'm freaking tired of trying to decipher some of the poorly written documentation produced by my fellow software engineers.
- samtho 9y ago
  Assuming your fellow engineers are college educated, you've just invalidated your own point. The required writing has obviously not helped them.
  - Retric 9y ago
    They could be worse without the training. Remember most people have 12+ years of learning how to write, a few college classes are only going to do so much.
  - kermittd 9y ago
    There we go right here. In theory people say engineers need to write cleary,accurately, whatever adverb is used to describe it in order to get a job etc. I wonder how many engineers get hired for their writing ability? In fact I bet a college educated engineer or at least one who went to college writes well enough as to not interfere with their work.
warcher 9y ago
If you're a STEM person on my team that cannot write in a coherent and precise fashion, I am going to find you and you had better pray you're worth retraining, because this is a non-negotiable part of any technical career you could hope to have. If you want regular promotions, probably watch your spelling too.

danso 9y ago

Writing classes at the college level usually involve some study of literature, which is conceivably helpful in not just daily, transactional communication, but in consuming news and entertainment. I have an engineering degree but I'm having a hard time thinking when I've ever used math beyond simple arithmetic and statistics outside of work.

throwawayjava 9y ago
FWIW that "simple arithmetic and statistics" is the sort of stuff that's taught in college algebra. We're not talking about teaching everyone Calculus or Group Theory. We're talking about making sure everyone knows what they should've learned in their middle and high school algebra course.
tnecniv 9y ago
They're typically also (if done well) about making arguments using sources and thinking logically -- both valuable skills. "Real" math is also about those things, but it's typically not presented that way until it's too late.

booleandilemma 9y ago

The sentence before that is: "It is also the single most failed course in community colleges across the country". The author is saying that a lot of people that don't need algebra end up failing it, so if we remove it from their curricula we'll raise graduation rates. That's the end goal. Not as many people fail writing courses, so there's no need to remove those courses as they're not a barrier to graduating.

cmahler7 9y ago
>The author is saying that a lot of people that don't need algebra end up failing it, so if we remove it from their curricula we'll raise graduation rates. That's the end goal This is what's wrong with our education system. Who cares if anyone is actually learning anything, get those useless metrics up!
- bsder 9y ago
  > Who cares if anyone is actually learning anything, get those useless metrics up! Employers seem to disagree with you about the usefulness of that metric. When being able to get a job depends more on what piece of paper you have than what knowledge you have, that is no longer a useless metric.
  - flukus 9y ago
    If we're going down that path, why not just print out the relevant bits of paper for anyone that asks? For a small fee of course. We can end the race to the bottom and go straight to the finish line.
    - bsder 9y ago
      Take this up with the employers, not the students or the colleges. Students and colleges are responding rationally to what the employers are demanding.
      - 9y ago

trentmb 9y ago

Yeah, the whining about well-roundedness tends to be humanities towards STEM, perhaps in response to the STEMlord mentality. FWIW: I have a "Bachelors of Science In Liberal Arts & Sciences" from math.illinois.edu and enjoyed the human sexuality, critical theory, etc courses I took in addition to the math courses. I have a sneaking suspicion there'd be a revolt if all humanities students had to pass MATH 347[1] to graduate. [1] http://www.math.uiuc.edu/Bourbaki/Syllabi/syl347.html http://www.math.uiuc.edu/Bourbaki/Syllabi/syl347.html

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

tsuyoshi 9y ago

Well, I majored in both political science and computer science. I don't think the two cases are different at all. I find it very irritating to deal with both political people who don't understand any math, and computer people who can't write a coherent sentence. However, if I had to pick one mathematical subject everyone should learn, it wouldn't be algebra, it would be statistics.

tnecniv 9y ago
How do you teach statistics in any meaningful way other than with algebra?
- nonbel 9y ago
  This is common: Plug into SPSS/etc -> p-value calculated -> result = ifelse(p<0.05, success/trueTheory, failure/falseTheory)
  - tnecniv 9y ago
    I said meaningful :P
throwawayjava 9y ago
> However, if I had to pick one mathematical subject everyone should learn, it wouldn't be algebra, it would be statistics. This isn't algebra in the "groups and rings" sense, it's algebra in the "use the quadratic equation", "is this a graph of x or x^2 or x^3?", "FOIL" sense. Think middle school or early high school. It's basically impossible to do any statistics past a bit of hand waving if your students can't identify the difference between a graph of x and a graph of x^2...