4 ms·

Yes. This is how capitalism works. If there is an inefficiency in the market, there is an opportunity for a competitor to beat you on price or quality. If AWS i

by hudon 9y ago

Yes. This is how capitalism works. If there is an inefficiency in the market, there is an opportunity for a competitor to beat you on price or quality. If AWS is not incorporating these efficiencies into their tech, then Microsoft Azure will and beat them by providing either a cheaper or higher quality service. If FileCoin actually worked as a better technology, Google or some big name would say they will start using it to beat AWS in the data storage game. I'm not saying FileCoin is useless, it is useful to store 3D printed gun designs and illegal media, because it is outside the reach of the law. But to think it is a more efficient technical solution to data storage is a bit naive...

JauntyHatAngle 9y ago
"Yes. This is how capitalism works. If there is an inefficiency in the market, there is an opportunity for a competitor to beat you on price or quality. If AWS is not incorporating these efficiencies into their tech, then Microsoft Azure will and beat them by providing either a cheaper or higher quality service." Not that I'm saying Filecoin or a decentralised storage coin is in any way the way forward or even a competitor.. but saying that is how capitalism works is such rubbish. In an ideal system you are right, but how often have you worked for a company that is raking in the cash by marketing well and being the "established" hand in the market? There are so many companies kicking around that are the biggest player in their field that continue to make bank because accountants and upper management decide they are the proven, safe pick in the market and have signed up for long, entrenched software packages. Also, if this upended the entrenched business model companies were using, they would not be able to quickly switch to it. There are plenty of ways this could be the a better solution and AWS wouldn't switch to it, saying capitalism proves this is not a good argument.
- hudon 9y ago
  It is not just AWS. The data storage market is saturated with competitors fighting hard to come out on top. Amazon, Apple, Box, Dropbox, Google, Microsoft are all in this and some of these companies have massive R&D budgets, have a history of delivering cutting edge tech and have strategies to overcome the Innovator's Dilemma (which is the problem you're describing). It is precisely because these companies are not entrenched that my argument holds. But also consider the technical downside to FileCoin (slow connections to unreliable laptops VS fast connections to redundant data centers) and the economic downsides to FileCoin (it won't be worth hosting due to economies of scale).
  - klodolph 9y ago
    Just a minor nit... Apple doesn't really belong on that list. But you're right in general. Cloud storage is a big race to the bottom, and add-ons are going to be what's monetized. I can't see Filecoin or Siacoin having any advantages here. I don't know how big the Filecoin network is, but it's very telling that they're not sharing this information. I expect that the amount of data stored is not large. Siacoin makes this available but total contracts are currently a bit under 200TB. For those of you keeping track at home, that's a single medium-size storage appliance.
  - alwillis 9y ago
    Again, Filecoin monetizes IPFS. The guy in the same Starbucks as you may have the file you want, so it could be faster to get it from him than from some data center. For example, see https://partysha.re https://partysha.re
baddox 9y ago
> If there is an inefficiency in the market, there is an opportunity for a competitor to beat you on price or quality. Of course. That's why when someone proposed a potential mechanism for increasing efficiency, it doesn't make sense to say "that couldn't possibly work, because if it could work then AWS would already be doing it."
alwillis 9y ago
1. Filecoin is the monetization layer for IPFS; on IPFS you never store stuff you didn't agree to store. So there won't be 3D printed gun designs, porn and other illegal media on your drives unless that's what you wanted. 2. Filecoin enables a transparent market for storage with bids and asks for storage, so you'll know what you're paying compared to AWS, Azure, etc. and you can decide what to do. 3. I'm on Comcast; if some guy two towns over from me is running his Filecoin-enabled IPFS node also on Comcast, there's going to be less latency than hitting an AWS or Google data center thousands of miles away. 4. My DigitalOcean droplet is ~200 miles away from me; trace route says it's 10 hops away. I can see the network name for Comcast two towns over from that's just 4 hops away. The other guys may be big but they can't change the speed of light. 5. Because IPFS is content addressed, I don't need to know where the content I want is located; thanks to the distributed hash table, any node that has that data can respond to my request. 6. IPFS and therefore Filecoin still work even if you can't reach the internet backbone… you can still get stuff via your neighborhood mesh network.

by hudon 9y ago

JauntyHatAngle 9y ago

"Yes. This is how capitalism works. If there is an inefficiency in the market, there is an opportunity for a competitor to beat you on price or quality. If AWS is not incorporating these efficiencies into their tech, then Microsoft Azure will and beat them by providing either a cheaper or higher quality service." Not that I'm saying Filecoin or a decentralised storage coin is in any way the way forward or even a competitor.. but saying that is how capitalism works is such rubbish. In an ideal system you are right, but how often have you worked for a company that is raking in the cash by marketing well and being the "established" hand in the market? There are so many companies kicking around that are the biggest player in their field that continue to make bank because accountants and upper management decide they are the proven, safe pick in the market and have signed up for long, entrenched software packages. Also, if this upended the entrenched business model companies were using, they would not be able to quickly switch to it. There are plenty of ways this could be the a better solution and AWS wouldn't switch to it, saying capitalism proves this is not a good argument.

hudon 9y ago
It is not just AWS. The data storage market is saturated with competitors fighting hard to come out on top. Amazon, Apple, Box, Dropbox, Google, Microsoft are all in this and some of these companies have massive R&D budgets, have a history of delivering cutting edge tech and have strategies to overcome the Innovator's Dilemma (which is the problem you're describing). It is precisely because these companies are not entrenched that my argument holds. But also consider the technical downside to FileCoin (slow connections to unreliable laptops VS fast connections to redundant data centers) and the economic downsides to FileCoin (it won't be worth hosting due to economies of scale).
- klodolph 9y ago
  Just a minor nit... Apple doesn't really belong on that list. But you're right in general. Cloud storage is a big race to the bottom, and add-ons are going to be what's monetized. I can't see Filecoin or Siacoin having any advantages here. I don't know how big the Filecoin network is, but it's very telling that they're not sharing this information. I expect that the amount of data stored is not large. Siacoin makes this available but total contracts are currently a bit under 200TB. For those of you keeping track at home, that's a single medium-size storage appliance.
- alwillis 9y ago
  Again, Filecoin monetizes IPFS. The guy in the same Starbucks as you may have the file you want, so it could be faster to get it from him than from some data center. For example, see https://partysha.re https://partysha.re

baddox 9y ago

> If there is an inefficiency in the market, there is an opportunity for a competitor to beat you on price or quality. Of course. That's why when someone proposed a potential mechanism for increasing efficiency, it doesn't make sense to say "that couldn't possibly work, because if it could work then AWS would already be doing it."

alwillis 9y ago

1. Filecoin is the monetization layer for IPFS; on IPFS you never store stuff you didn't agree to store. So there won't be 3D printed gun designs, porn and other illegal media on your drives unless that's what you wanted. 2. Filecoin enables a transparent market for storage with bids and asks for storage, so you'll know what you're paying compared to AWS, Azure, etc. and you can decide what to do. 3. I'm on Comcast; if some guy two towns over from me is running his Filecoin-enabled IPFS node also on Comcast, there's going to be less latency than hitting an AWS or Google data center thousands of miles away. 4. My DigitalOcean droplet is ~200 miles away from me; trace route says it's 10 hops away. I can see the network name for Comcast two towns over from that's just 4 hops away. The other guys may be big but they can't change the speed of light. 5. Because IPFS is content addressed, I don't need to know where the content I want is located; thanks to the distributed hash table, any node that has that data can respond to my request. 6. IPFS and therefore Filecoin still work even if you can't reach the internet backbone… you can still get stuff via your neighborhood mesh network.