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> Unmarked functions default to public in Solidity What kind of brain-dead apes designed this language? This would be a stupid decision in any language, never

> Unmarked functions default to public in Solidity What kind of brain-dead apes designed this language? This would be a stupid decision in any language, never mind one specifically intended for high-value transactions.

justinjlynn 9y ago
Design... before Solidarity I had never seen such an abuse of the word.
- hirsin 9y ago
  I think the capitalization of a method making the difference between two very different outcomes might be my favorite example. It's that kind of stuff that makes me happy I have to go through api reviews at work - although seriously how does anyone sign off on these designs?
  - justinjlynn 9y ago
    > sign off on these designs I only wish people had to do that. Shit like this are why professional and civil engineers roll their eyes at the mention of software "engineering". There are best practices and available tools but people employ them far less often than they probably should. In the space, take a look at Kadena's Pact smart contract language. It's not perfect by any means (lisp-religious syntax and its tight integration with Kadena internal constructions, for example) but it is at the least, working on formal verification support.
Animats 9y ago
This is why I keep saying that "smart contracts" should be expressed in some declarative notation like decision tables. Byte-coded programs as contracts were a really bad idea. Contracts need to be readable, not just executable.
- dvcc 9y ago
  I'm kind of curious on what you think about Tezos and its Michelson language (https://www.tezos.com/static/papers/language.pdf https://www.tezos.com/static/papers/language.pdf) which offers provability of contracts.
  - sna1l 9y ago
    Just looking at this language, it makes me feel like we are going back in time in regards to readability and ease of use. I understand that security and provability of contracts is more important in these cases, but one can dream!
    - fab13n 9y ago
      Michelson is a VM bytecode, not a programming language, although it happens to be readable enough to write simple contracts in it directly. IIRC, the old Camllight VM was pretty similar (I might misremember, that was literally decades ago); an ML-like language to Michelson compiler is fairly straightforward to write and to prove sound. I'm happy that they do things the sane way, i.e. focusing on sound foundations rather than on how Javascripty the syntax looks; but I'm afraid the communication isn't as clear as it could/should be. Blessing a compiler for some subset of ML, as a first high level language, would have cleared things up IMO.
    - aisofteng 9y ago
      I find it perfectly readable. Precise and intentful. Perhaps you're just not accustomed to formal writing?
- antocv 9y ago
  Byteball (https://byteball.org/ https://byteball.org/ has declarative smart contracts!
  - Animats 9y ago
    That looks interesting. I just skimmed the white paper. It's not clear what their contracts can do, though. They need more examples. The underlying DAG idea has potential. You could have two half-transactions happening on separate subtrees, where A is buying X from B and B is paying Y to A. So A broadcasts "A will buy X from B when B pays Y to A", and B broadcasts "B will pay Y to A when A buys X from B". When the matching half-transactions acquire a common child, the transaction commits. It's a true "meeting of the minds".
earlz 9y ago
My favorite critique of Solidity is this guy on hacker news from a few days back https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14691212 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14691212
johnmaguire2013 9y ago
This is the design of most high-level scripting languages (e.g. Javascript, PHP, Python, Ruby)...
- make3 9y ago
  These aren't called "Solidity" and more importantly weren't built specifically to write a financial infrastructure of multiple hundreds of million dollars (though some of these languages are definitely used to manage money now)
  - johnmaguire2013 9y ago
    I was responding to this statement from the parent... > This would be a stupid decision in any language
- int_19h 9y ago
  Python is a bit different still: it doesn't have visibility specifiers to begin with, everything is public.
  - masklinn 9y ago
    Javascript is the same, AFAIK.

justinjlynn 9y ago

Design... before Solidarity I had never seen such an abuse of the word.

hirsin 9y ago
I think the capitalization of a method making the difference between two very different outcomes might be my favorite example. It's that kind of stuff that makes me happy I have to go through api reviews at work - although seriously how does anyone sign off on these designs?
- justinjlynn 9y ago
  > sign off on these designs I only wish people had to do that. Shit like this are why professional and civil engineers roll their eyes at the mention of software "engineering". There are best practices and available tools but people employ them far less often than they probably should. In the space, take a look at Kadena's Pact smart contract language. It's not perfect by any means (lisp-religious syntax and its tight integration with Kadena internal constructions, for example) but it is at the least, working on formal verification support.

Animats 9y ago

This is why I keep saying that "smart contracts" should be expressed in some declarative notation like decision tables. Byte-coded programs as contracts were a really bad idea. Contracts need to be readable, not just executable.

dvcc 9y ago
I'm kind of curious on what you think about Tezos and its Michelson language (https://www.tezos.com/static/papers/language.pdf https://www.tezos.com/static/papers/language.pdf) which offers provability of contracts.
- sna1l 9y ago
  Just looking at this language, it makes me feel like we are going back in time in regards to readability and ease of use. I understand that security and provability of contracts is more important in these cases, but one can dream!
  - fab13n 9y ago
    Michelson is a VM bytecode, not a programming language, although it happens to be readable enough to write simple contracts in it directly. IIRC, the old Camllight VM was pretty similar (I might misremember, that was literally decades ago); an ML-like language to Michelson compiler is fairly straightforward to write and to prove sound. I'm happy that they do things the sane way, i.e. focusing on sound foundations rather than on how Javascripty the syntax looks; but I'm afraid the communication isn't as clear as it could/should be. Blessing a compiler for some subset of ML, as a first high level language, would have cleared things up IMO.
  - aisofteng 9y ago
    I find it perfectly readable. Precise and intentful. Perhaps you're just not accustomed to formal writing?
antocv 9y ago
Byteball (https://byteball.org/ https://byteball.org/ has declarative smart contracts!
- Animats 9y ago
  That looks interesting. I just skimmed the white paper. It's not clear what their contracts can do, though. They need more examples. The underlying DAG idea has potential. You could have two half-transactions happening on separate subtrees, where A is buying X from B and B is paying Y to A. So A broadcasts "A will buy X from B when B pays Y to A", and B broadcasts "B will pay Y to A when A buys X from B". When the matching half-transactions acquire a common child, the transaction commits. It's a true "meeting of the minds".

earlz 9y ago

My favorite critique of Solidity is this guy on hacker news from a few days back https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14691212 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14691212

johnmaguire2013 9y ago

This is the design of most high-level scripting languages (e.g. Javascript, PHP, Python, Ruby)...

make3 9y ago
These aren't called "Solidity" and more importantly weren't built specifically to write a financial infrastructure of multiple hundreds of million dollars (though some of these languages are definitely used to manage money now)
- johnmaguire2013 9y ago
  I was responding to this statement from the parent... > This would be a stupid decision in any language
int_19h 9y ago
Python is a bit different still: it doesn't have visibility specifiers to begin with, everything is public.
- masklinn 9y ago
  Javascript is the same, AFAIK.