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A wonderful machine, I can imagine the sound of it two rooms away. So now as an engineer and semi-pro backgammon player, the ultimate dice were ones that had t

A wonderful machine, I can imagine the sound of it two rooms away. So now as an engineer and semi-pro backgammon player, the ultimate dice were ones that had the divots drill out and replaced with a different colored plastic. This way the uneven weight of the dice was not a factor. Just wondering...

b_emery 9y ago
Has it ever been shown that dice not made as you describe are non-random?
- BatFastard 9y ago
  The manufacturers represented them as less biases. I do not have any statistics to back it up. But it does make sense that the removal of any material would effect the rolling unless very sophisticated things were done to offset the remove of material.
  - cbanek 9y ago
    Really? I've never heard of this, and I live in Vegas where fair dice are considered pretty important. The pips on opposing sides always add up to 7, and each of the faces are balanced (1 is in the center, 2 is on opposing corners, 3 is a line, 4 is all the corners, and 5 is the corners and the center, 6 is two rows). At least in craps, what the casinos worry about are fake dice, and not hitting the back wall with the dice. The back bumpy wall introduces a lot of randomness. Some people try to put the dice in various initial positions and roll them so that they only roll over one axis, to try to influence the rolls. The casino will throw you out if you don't hit the back wall repeatedly. Also, over time the sharp corners of the dice get ground down just by friction. Uneven wear is also a problem, which is why they frequently switch out the dice.
    - BatFastard 9y ago
      The I want to say (counter sunk) dice always have rounded corners too. I think the cost might outweigh the randomness benefit for Vegas.
      - cbanek 9y ago
        Probably. Even the extra security features probably make them cost a lot more than cheap dice, and there's a lot more QA like spinning them on various axes to make sure they are balanced. They make up a bit of that on the backend though, selling the dice to all the tourists. :)
    - BatFastard 9y ago
      Found what I was looking for! Precision Dice. http://www.bgshop.com/index-backgammon-dice.htm http://www.bgshop.com/index-backgammon-dice.htm They seem to be a backgammon thing.
      - cbanek 9y ago
        Ah thanks, very interesting. This part was telling: "Precision dice with rounded (or cut) corners are recommended where a limited rolling area is available, the cut corners allow the dice to tumble, in particular the smallest size of 1/2 inch (13 mm) are becoming increasingly used by many RPG gamers." I didn't think about backgammon being a small dice rolling area, but that makes total sense.
KekDemaga 9y ago
If the divots are a different color plastic then they have a different weight than the rest of the die as they contain different amounts of carbon black, camel white etc.
- BatFastard 9y ago
  True, but that difference is insignificant compared to no material at all. Plus if you were REALLY anal, things could be done to exactly match the density.
  - mostlyskeptical 9y ago
    That's how casino dice work right?
    - BatFastard 9y ago
      I think Casino dice just have to be good enough to meet standards, cost vs benefit. See my Precision Dice post below.
ansible 9y ago
Can't be nearly as bad as any pachinko parlor that I've been near. It sounds like a machine shop full of circular saws. I harbor the belief (likely unjustified) that the hearing loss resulting in hanging out there is as bad as gambling addiction issues. I don't know how people stand it, or why they'd want to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfocxjWbZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfocxjWbZI
- qq66 9y ago
  The bright lights and noise levels in casinos are deliberate as they impair rational thought. Study after study on "cognitive load" show that if your brain is being stimulated or worked in one domain it impairs good decision making in other domains.
  - ansible 9y ago
    I'm sure the operators of these places are aware of that too. What's funny is that with USA casinos, the noise level is loud, but not bothersome to me personally. AFAIK, this is intended to create a "lively" atmosphere. Whereas the pachinko parlors are far beyond the "lively" level, and well into the "where is my OSHA-approved hearing protection?" level.

b_emery 9y ago

Has it ever been shown that dice not made as you describe are non-random?

BatFastard 9y ago
The manufacturers represented them as less biases. I do not have any statistics to back it up. But it does make sense that the removal of any material would effect the rolling unless very sophisticated things were done to offset the remove of material.
- cbanek 9y ago
  Really? I've never heard of this, and I live in Vegas where fair dice are considered pretty important. The pips on opposing sides always add up to 7, and each of the faces are balanced (1 is in the center, 2 is on opposing corners, 3 is a line, 4 is all the corners, and 5 is the corners and the center, 6 is two rows). At least in craps, what the casinos worry about are fake dice, and not hitting the back wall with the dice. The back bumpy wall introduces a lot of randomness. Some people try to put the dice in various initial positions and roll them so that they only roll over one axis, to try to influence the rolls. The casino will throw you out if you don't hit the back wall repeatedly. Also, over time the sharp corners of the dice get ground down just by friction. Uneven wear is also a problem, which is why they frequently switch out the dice.
  - BatFastard 9y ago
    The I want to say (counter sunk) dice always have rounded corners too. I think the cost might outweigh the randomness benefit for Vegas.
    - cbanek 9y ago
      Probably. Even the extra security features probably make them cost a lot more than cheap dice, and there's a lot more QA like spinning them on various axes to make sure they are balanced. They make up a bit of that on the backend though, selling the dice to all the tourists. :)
  - BatFastard 9y ago
    Found what I was looking for! Precision Dice. http://www.bgshop.com/index-backgammon-dice.htm http://www.bgshop.com/index-backgammon-dice.htm They seem to be a backgammon thing.
    - cbanek 9y ago
      Ah thanks, very interesting. This part was telling: "Precision dice with rounded (or cut) corners are recommended where a limited rolling area is available, the cut corners allow the dice to tumble, in particular the smallest size of 1/2 inch (13 mm) are becoming increasingly used by many RPG gamers." I didn't think about backgammon being a small dice rolling area, but that makes total sense.

KekDemaga 9y ago

If the divots are a different color plastic then they have a different weight than the rest of the die as they contain different amounts of carbon black, camel white etc.

BatFastard 9y ago
True, but that difference is insignificant compared to no material at all. Plus if you were REALLY anal, things could be done to exactly match the density.
- mostlyskeptical 9y ago
  That's how casino dice work right?
  - BatFastard 9y ago
    I think Casino dice just have to be good enough to meet standards, cost vs benefit. See my Precision Dice post below.

ansible 9y ago

Can't be nearly as bad as any pachinko parlor that I've been near. It sounds like a machine shop full of circular saws. I harbor the belief (likely unjustified) that the hearing loss resulting in hanging out there is as bad as gambling addiction issues. I don't know how people stand it, or why they'd want to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfocxjWbZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfocxjWbZI

qq66 9y ago
The bright lights and noise levels in casinos are deliberate as they impair rational thought. Study after study on "cognitive load" show that if your brain is being stimulated or worked in one domain it impairs good decision making in other domains.
- ansible 9y ago
  I'm sure the operators of these places are aware of that too. What's funny is that with USA casinos, the noise level is loud, but not bothersome to me personally. AFAIK, this is intended to create a "lively" atmosphere. Whereas the pachinko parlors are far beyond the "lively" level, and well into the "where is my OSHA-approved hearing protection?" level.